Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

7 minutes ago, bielesibub said:

I'm not sure what I've said that has meant you've been able to twist it that I made an argument of 'they started it', puerile. Israel being invaded every 5 years or so is utterly awful, and I'd never say otherwise so please don't try putting words in my mouth, likewise I guess being suppressed is also awful as you say there is a load of bad on each side. as you say there is utter filth happening on both sides, both sides look utterly sad and desperate. As for 'my team' childishness, good luck. mate.

You indirectly said Palestinians support Hamas in polling due to being shot at, starved or whatever. Surely then they wouldn’t have the 40% support in the West Bank? There’s a strong case to be made about some of the undercurrents in Palestinian society (see intifada, terror, corruption, treatment of anyone not Sunni, male and heterosexual) not exactly being something Norway, Ireland and Spain should support without at least asking the question about what they intend to do about it.  Palestinians are capable of planning mass terrorism, but not of feeding their own people, I find it all a bit too easy to blame it all on Israel.

[chrisp65]

Recognition of a country’s right to exist is not endorsement of its current murderous regime.

[omariqy]

 

[omariqy]

51 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You indirectly said Palestinians support Hamas in polling due to being shot at, starved or whatever. Surely then they wouldn’t have the 40% support in the West Bank? There’s a strong case to be made about some of the undercurrents in Palestinian society (see intifada, terror, corruption, treatment of anyone not Sunni, male and heterosexual) not exactly being something Norway, Ireland and Spain should support without at least asking the question about what they intend to do about it.  Palestinians are capable of planning mass terrorism, but not of feeding their own people, I find it all a bit too easy to blame it all on Israel.

I've just read your last few posts in bewilderment. Israel gets invaded every 5 years? Who did the invading really in all this? The West Bank is hardly paradise. There's stories every day of Israeli soldiers terrorising the general populace. Let's not even starts with the illegal settlements or the settlers killing of burning olive trees. You simply matters to Palestinians having a victim mentality or supporting violence. Yet conveniently forget what drives all this. Just like it will be forgotten what Israel did in these months when the next terrorist is 'born' who saw his entire family tree get wiped off the earth.  

[omariqy]

 

[omariqy]

 

 

Stay classy 

[omariqy]

 

[LondonLax]

4 hours ago, omariqy said:

 

You keep posting examples of Israeli’s who hate Palestinians but there are endless examples you could include of Palestinians who hate Israelis and want them dead.

Both sides have been fighting each other for so long that the hatred on both sides is beyond anything we can relate to any more. 

[magnkarl]

12 hours ago, omariqy said:

I've just read your last few posts in bewilderment. Israel gets invaded every 5 years? Who did the invading really in all this? The West Bank is hardly paradise. There's stories every day of Israeli soldiers terrorising the general populace. Let's not even starts with the illegal settlements or the settlers killing of burning olive trees. You simply matters to Palestinians having a victim mentality or supporting violence. Yet conveniently forget what drives all this. Just like it will be forgotten what Israel did in these months when the next terrorist is 'born' who saw his entire family tree get wiped off the earth.  

Did you still not read the history of the country you are protesting for?

Start with how the Arabs reacted to Israel getting the nod in the UN, if that is too old, go for the 60s, 70s, 80s, or maybe the 2000s, when two intifadas were underway, bombing universities, cafes, schools and cinemas. All civilian targets, Palestinians and Arabs have a habit of pretending to be victims when they often start each single war with Israel. They’re pretty much the only country in the world who expect winners terms when they’re beaten in war over and over.

[omariqy]

14 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Did you still not read the history of the country you are protesting for?

Start with how the Arabs reacted to Israel getting the nod in the UN, if that is too old, go for the 60s, 70s, 80s, or maybe the 2000s, when two intifadas were underway, bombing universities, cafes, schools and cinemas. All civilian targets, Palestinians and Arabs have a habit of pretending to be victims when they often start each single war with Israel. They’re pretty much the only country in the world who expect winners terms when they’re beaten in war over and over.

I'm fully aware of that and I'm fully aware that history doesn't start in the 1960s or by a select few events. I'm fully aware of Haganha, Irgun and Lehi. Or Menachem Begin, the terrorist who became prime minister. The various terrorist bombings in the early formation of Israel. The Deir Yassin massacre. The driving out of hundreds of thousands from their homes. You pick out incidents like they came out of nowhere and that it's a war in your eyes. Intifada means resistance or uprising. Resistance against the occupier and coloniser. You dismiss it like it's nothing.

[magnkarl]

4 hours ago, omariqy said:

I'm fully aware of that and I'm fully aware that history doesn't start in the 1960s or by a select few events. I'm fully aware of Haganha, Irgun and Lehi. Or Menachem Begin, the terrorist who became prime minister. The various terrorist bombings in the early formation of Israel. The Deir Yassin massacre. The driving out of hundreds of thousands from their homes. You pick out incidents like they came out of nowhere and that it's a war in your eyes. Intifada means resistance or uprising. Resistance against the occupier and coloniser. You dismiss it like it's nothing.

It’s absolutely not lost on me, which I’ve reiterated hundreds of times in this thread. Both sides need to step back and learn to live together. You paint a picture of a totally faultless party that have done nothing wrong and are being constantly oppressed for no reason. Just like many of the people who protest for Palestine without a shred of history behind their support for a people who have caused trouble in all their neighbouring states, including attacking the Olympics.

The arguments proposed by the Pro-Palestine lot often deny Israel their right to history while at the same time saying things like ‘things didn’t start on Oct 7th’. Different people, different rules. How is the average Arab nation responding to a group like the Palestinian people doing the things that the Palestinian governments have done throughout the last 70 years? Or how do we in the West respond to, let’s see, terrorism, hostage taking, public executions, wide scale money laundering and embezzlement of UN funds, receiving funding from Iran and Qatar, oppressing their own people and so on?

Edited May 25 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

7 hours ago, omariqy said:

I'm fully aware of that and I'm fully aware that history doesn't start in the 1960s or by a select few events. I'm fully aware of Haganha, Irgun and Lehi. Or Menachem Begin, the terrorist who became prime minister. The various terrorist bombings in the early formation of Israel. The Deir Yassin massacre. The driving out of hundreds of thousands from their homes. You pick out incidents like they came out of nowhere and that it's a war in your eyes. Intifada means resistance or uprising. Resistance against the occupier and coloniser. You dismiss it like it's nothing.

Do you think the Jews had any right to a state in Palestine?

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, Panto_Villan said:

Do you think the Jews had any right to a state in Palestine?

I think you just have to look at my previous posts to know that I have always empathised with the Jewish people and the oppression they have faced. In Europe in particular at that time. The holocaust is the biggest tragedy ever. There was a time where Jewish people had peace and prosperity under Muslim rule. The oppression they faced came mainly in Europe. That’s not me dismissing what Arabs have done to them, I am aware of that too. I don’t think it was anyone else’s right to give someone else’s state to another people. The Balfour declaration was set out to give Jewish people a home without impeding on the rights of the indigenous population. The terrorists Zionists have made it a political mission to oust another to make their home. That’s where my issue lies. Zionism doesn’t reflect all Jews. In fact many Jews oppose the idea of Zionism and Israel. Zionism is a political movement in my eyes, not a religious movement. 

I know fully well what Arabs/Palestinans have done wrong and the crimes that have been committed by them. I took umbrage with people on this thread painting them as wishing for violence and losing a war. You can’t kill hundreds of thousands and then remove millions of others with no right to return, you can’t treat a race under different laws and oppose apartheid laws and expect no resistance and subservience. It doesn’t mean that people can kill innocent people but it does provide context to what has happened since Balfour declaration was signed. 

[bickster]

25 minutes ago, omariqy said:

I don’t think it was anyone else’s right to give someone else’s state to another people.

It wasn’t anyone's state. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed and it was under British control as Mandatory Palestine. Let’s also be clear that through the Ottoman Empire and Mandatory Palestine, that Jews had always been present on that land and clearly for a longer time than any Muslim population

The way you paint it sounds like a country called Palestine existed and was taken from its people. That never happened.

Unless of course you think Palestine should be given back to Turkey?

 

[Panto_Villan]

18 minutes ago, omariqy said:

I think you just have to look at my previous posts to know that I have always empathised with the Jewish people and the oppression they have faced. In Europe in particular at that time. The holocaust is the biggest tragedy ever. There was a time where Jewish people had peace and prosperity under Muslim rule. The oppression they faced came mainly in Europe. That’s not me dismissing what Arabs have done to them, I am aware of that too. I don’t think it was anyone else’s right to give someone else’s state to another people. The Balfour declaration was set out to give Jewish people a home without impeding on the rights of the indigenous population. The terrorists Zionists have made it a political mission to oust another to make their home. That’s where my issue lies. Zionism doesn’t reflect all Jews. In fact many Jews oppose the idea of Zionism and Israel. Zionism is a political movement in my eyes, not a religious movement. 

I know fully well what Arabs/Palestinans have done wrong and the crimes that have been committed by them. I took umbrage with people on this thread painting them as wishing for violence and losing a war. You can’t kill hundreds of thousands and then remove millions of others with no right to return, you can’t treat a race under different laws and oppose apartheid laws and expect no resistance and subservience. It doesn’t mean that people can kill innocent people but it does provide context to what has happened since Balfour declaration was signed. 

I wasn’t trying imply you had a problem with Jews in general, I was just asking a straightforward question about whether you believed Israel had a right to exist.

And, as far as I can see, the answer is no? The Jews were mostly persecuted by Europeans and they had no right to any land in Palestine (as it belonged to the Palestinians already there)?

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, omariqy said:

I think you just have to look at my previous posts to know that I have always empathised with the Jewish people and the oppression they have faced. In Europe in particular at that time. The holocaust is the biggest tragedy ever. There was a time where Jewish people had peace and prosperity under Muslim rule. The oppression they faced came mainly in Europe. That’s not me dismissing what Arabs have done to them, I am aware of that too. I don’t think it was anyone else’s right to give someone else’s state to another people. The Balfour declaration was set out to give Jewish people a home without impeding on the rights of the indigenous population. The terrorists Zionists have made it a political mission to oust another to make their home. That’s where my issue lies. Zionism doesn’t reflect all Jews. In fact many Jews oppose the idea of Zionism and Israel. Zionism is a political movement in my eyes, not a religious movement. 

I know fully well what Arabs/Palestinans have done wrong and the crimes that have been committed by them. I took umbrage with people on this thread painting them as wishing for violence and losing a war. You can’t kill hundreds of thousands and then remove millions of others with no right to return, you can’t treat a race under different laws and oppose apartheid laws and expect no resistance and subservience. It doesn’t mean that people can kill innocent people but it does provide context to what has happened since Balfour declaration was signed. 

My Jewish family is from the border between Poland and Belarus. The property my great grandfather nurtured with 50 years of his life after being pogromed out of Belgorod oblast is currently owned by a quite high ranking member of Lukashenko’s party. Maybe I should blame and hurt some random Belarussian for what the nazis did to my family before my father and grandparents were saved by a very brave British diplomat on the way to the gas chambers? 

How long will displacement four generations ago be used as an excuse to act like a barbaric terrorist?

In that case, let’s also remove the Arabs from Lebanon and reinstate the original displaced and massacred Assyrian population purged by the ottomans, and make large parts of Anatolia Armenian again. I also presume you’re fine with ownership of large swathes or East Jerusalem being returned to the original Jewish population displaced by the Jordanian army in 1948, which is now settled by Arabs?

Edited May 25 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

16 minutes ago, bickster said:

It wasn’t anyone's state. The Ottoman Empire had collapsed and it was under British control as Mandatory Palestine. Let’s also be clear that through the Ottoman Empire and Mandatory Palestine, that Jews had always been present on that land and clearly for a longer time than any Muslim population

The way you paint it sounds like a country called Palestine existed and was taken from its people. That never happened.

Unless of course you think Palestine should be given back to Turkey?

 

People were living there. That they may not have been conforming to the norms of empires that thinking everything needs to be owned and have a red line around it and a flag in the middle is not their problem. 
Kind of like indigenous people the world over where flag shaggers arrive and declare its now theirs for some king or queen or flag. It’s a really poor argument used by the greedy all over the world for a thousand years, you tribe in the Amazon, you’re ours now, you nomadic people of the prairies, this is ours now. Hello Tibet, we own you. Hello people of Arabia this is ours now, look I drew a red line around it.

 

[magnkarl]

32 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

People were living there. That they may not have been conforming to the norms of empires that thinking everything needs to be owned and have a red line around it and a flag in the middle is not their problem. 
Kind of like indigenous people the world over where flag shaggers arrive and declare its now theirs for some king or queen or flag. It’s a really poor argument used by the greedy all over the world for a thousand years, you tribe in the Amazon, you’re ours now, you nomadic people of the prairies, this is ours now. Hello Tibet, we own you. Hello people of Arabia this is ours now, look I drew a red line around it.

 

Are you prepared to give your home back to someone claiming to be a Pict or Celt?

There were also always a decent sized Jewish minority or majority in the area, don’t they have the same right to a country as the Arabs?

Edited May 25 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

34 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

People were living there. That they may not have been conforming to the norms of empires that thinking everything needs to be owned and have a red line around it and a flag in the middle is not their problem. 
Kind of like indigenous people the world over where flag shaggers arrive and declare its now theirs for some king or queen or flag. It’s a really poor argument used by the greedy all over the world for a thousand years, you tribe in the Amazon, you’re ours now, you nomadic people of the prairies, this is ours now. Hello Tibet, we own you. Hello people of Arabia this is ours now, look I drew a red line around it.

 

That cuts both ways, though. As bicks already pointed out, there’s been Jews in the region long before it fell under Arab control. One of the big expulsions of Jews from the area happened after a war with the Romans some six hundred years before Islam was even founded, so arguably you’re making a point in favour of the existence of Israel there.

[Chindie]

Jewish people didn't pop out of the ground in Palestine, and the land would never have been uniquely Jewish, because there's never been many Jewish people, and that land has always been a crossroads due to its location. Arguments to historic ownership are bunk.