Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Jareth]

4 minutes ago, regular_john said:

Muppet 1: "Someone is criticising Islam for it's myriad of anti-Semitic doctrines and the Islamic world for enacting anti-Semitic prejudice and violence for generations"

 

Muppet 2: " Oh no! Quick, call them a racist!"

 

As sure as the sun will rise and the sun will set, muppets will accuse those who criticise Islam of being racist.

 

I assume you think that means all Muslims are of a certain ethnicity? Or that one must be a certain ethnicity to be a Muslim?

 

Isn't that a touch ...racist of you?

 

Islam is not a race, you muppet. It is a set of ideas and beliefs. Criticism of Islam and Muslims is no more racist than criticism of Catholics, Mormons, Scientologists, Jews, Hindus etc.

Did you know that Jim Henson, creator of the muppets, created Fraggle Rock to demonstrate to kids that you can have diverse groups all living next to each other but regardless of their wants and needs, they can all get along.

[magnkarl]

21 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

@magnkarl there's some very contentious language in there isn't there?

I'll admit to not having a huge expertise - but just from the link you've included it would appear that this movement was to a large extent driven by the desire of Jewish people to move to Israel - to finally have a "home" they could move to. "Ruthlessly purge from the Muslim world" and "cleansed from Arab states" paints a very different picture to the link you've attached that talks a lot more about the foundation of modern Israel and the desire of Jewish people from surrounding countries to flock to a homeland they'd long dreamed of.

The link itself mentions that the politicisation of the movement with different sides emphasising the "pull" versus "push" factors - and going on that (admittedly narrow) base of evidence, from an initial reading, are you not presenting just one extreme end of the argument about why and how this movement happened, and in doing so promoting the very factionalism you warn against at the end of your post?

To turn this around, would you not call confiscating, forcibly converting and taking Muslim properties in the West Bank ethnic cleansing?

I'm sure some of the Jews pushed out of the Arab countries managed to get out without getting harmed physically, if that's what you're after. The reasons why they've left or been purged (the massacres of Jews in Arabian countries since Israel's inception isn't really up for debate), is fundamental in Arab nations and Iran. People don't just completely disappear from a region for no reason.

I think the mental gymnastics of some of the pro-Palestinian camp shows glaring holes.

The issue I take with this all is that most 'Pro-Palestinians' are totally blind to what's happened to half of Israel's population in the first place, about the Palestinian interference in Lebanon, in Jordan, in Egypt and Syria. The blame is on both sides here, but the Arabs are imo just as big a part of this as Israel's right. PLO\Fatah\Hamas\Black September or whatever haven't exactly embraced peace, neither have the Arab league. Egypt for example cry 'foul' when someone suggests that they should help Palestinians by allowing them into their country, while they were more than happy to deport their entire Jewish population to Israel when the shoe was on the other foot in 1956.

Edited February 13 by magnkarl

[regular_john]

29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I think maybe you’ve read something, then assumed something, and then it’s made you angry?

I think you stated that criticism of Islam was 'white racism' shortly after I posted some criticism of Islam

 

I think I pointed out how ludicrous your comment was. I think you now realise how ludicrous it was and are deflecting to avoid embarrassment.

[regular_john]

31 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Did you know that Jim Henson, creator of the muppets, created Fraggle Rock to demonstrate to kids that you can have diverse groups all living next to each other but regardless of their wants and needs, they can all get along.

And indeed they can! Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists etc all seem to be able to live perfectly happily amongst each other (albeit not perfectly).

[omariqy]

4 minutes ago, regular_john said:

And indeed they can! Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Atheists etc all seem to be able to live perfectly happily amongst each other (albeit not perfectly).

You obviously don’t know what the Hindus have done to Muslims or Sikhs in India. Or what Christians have done for centuries. What atheists have done. Not perfectly is definitely underselling it. You listen too much to your far right pals. Ignorant. End of. 

[OutByEaster?]

45 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

To turn this around, would you not call confiscating, forcibly converting and taking Muslim properties in the West Bank ethnic cleansing?

I don't get the similarity to what I was saying. I guess the equivalent would be to say that if the US and Western nations created a supported, prosperous, safe, free place for Palestinians in the West Bank and encouraged the people of Gaza to move there, would that constitute a ruthless purge of Gaza?

45 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I'm sure some of the Jews pushed out of the Arab countries managed to get out without getting harmed physically, if that's what you're after.

No, it's not what I'm after - the link that you posted suggests that many of those that flocked to Israel did so in the spirit of a new start, of hope, not as terrorised exiles but as those wanting to come home and upping sticks for a new life in a place they'd always dreamed of.

45 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The massacres of Jews in Arabian countries since Israel's inception isn't really up for debate.

And I'm not debating it - I think it would be ridiculous to claim that either side doesn't hate the other.

45 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

 People don't just completely disappear from a region for no reason.

Absolutely true - but the reason here is that they finally had a place to go to, the reason was the creation of modern Israel - and I'm coming to that conclusion by the evidence of the link that you posted - not that there was a new and sudden purge that coincidentally happened at exactly the same time as the establishment of Israel, but that Jewish people moved to Israel because it was where they wanted to be.

I'm not arguing that there aren't huge sections of the ME that wouldn't happily watch Israel burn - that's undeniably true - but I am arguing that using contentious language to describe what others would call the homecoming of Jewish people across the region might be seen as a view that is strongly one sided - especially in a post that warns of the dangers of being strongly one-sided. 

[bickster]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't get the similarity to what I was saying. I guess the equivalent would be to say that if Israel created a supported, prosperous, safe, free place for Palestinians in the West Bank and encouraged the people of Gaza to move there, would that constitute a ruthless purge of Gaza?

No, it's not what I'm after - the link that you posted suggests that many of those that flocked to Israel did so in the spirit of a new start, of hope, not as terrorised exiles but as those wanting to come home and upping sticks for a new life in a place they'd always dreamed of.

And I'm not debating it - I think it would be ridiculous to claim that either side doesn't hate the other.

Absolutely true - but the reason here is that they finally had a place to go to, the reason was the creation of modern Israel - and I'm coming to that conclusion by the evidence of the link that you posted - not that there was a new and sudden purge that coincidentally happened at exactly the same time as the establishment of Israel, but that Jewish people moved to Israel because it was where they wanted to be.

I'm not arguing that there aren't huge sections of the ME that wouldn't happily watch Israel burn - that's undeniably true - but I am arguing that using contentious language to describe what others would call the homecoming of Jewish people across the region might be seen as a view that is strongly one sided - especially in a post that warns of the dangers of being strongly one-sided. 

Surely you'd have to ask yourself why other countries, in other regions still retain significant populations of Jewish people yet those in Arabic countries do not

The "they all went to Israel happily" line is propaganda, it isn't remotely true

[regular_john]

12 minutes ago, omariqy said:

You obviously don’t know what the Hindus have done to Muslims or Sikhs in India. Or what Christians have done for centuries. What atheists have done. Not perfectly is definitely underselling it. You listen too much to your far right pals. Ignorant. End of. 

Of course there have been and continue to be religious conflicts and violence throughout the world. To pretend otherwise is, as you say, ignorant.

 

However, these groups have all shown that they can live amongst each other perfectly happily and peacefully, and in fact do so in multicultural and secular societies worldwide.

[OutByEaster?]

20 minutes ago, bickster said:

The "they all went to Israel happily" line is propaganda, it isn't remotely true

"Happily" would be something of a push, but the link that was posted very much suggests that a great many of them did so by choice - a safe homeland was created and a hundreds of thousands of people moved there.

[omariqy]

11 minutes ago, regular_john said:

Of course there have been and continue to be religious conflicts and violence throughout the world. To pretend otherwise is, as you say, ignorant.

 

However, these groups have all shown that they can live amongst each other perfectly happily and peacefully, and in fact do so in multicultural and secular societies worldwide.

And so have Muslims. Every religion or group of people have had periods of harmony or periods of conflict. The destabilisation of the Middle East has a lot to do with what’s happening in the Muslim world now. Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world and yet is never talked about in your context. 

[choffer]

14 minutes ago, regular_john said:

However, these groups have all shown that they can live amongst each other perfectly happily and peacefully, and in fact do so in multicultural and secular societies worldwide.

If you want to make broad generalisations, I'd suggest there are a good number of muslim countries where this is possible too. I've just returned from Istanbul and although I am uneasy about the politics of the country generally, I'd have to say it was a very warm and accepting place. I was there with my partner and a gay couple and we all experienced nothing but kindness and hospitality. 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, regular_john said:

I think you stated that criticism of Islam was 'white racism' shortly after I posted some criticism of Islam

 

I think I pointed out how ludicrous your comment was. I think you now realise how ludicrous it was and are deflecting to avoid embarrassment.

No embarrassment here, my point absolutely stands.

You waded in with a ridiculous catch all condemnation of large groups of people, I thought I’d join the party. 

You want to take it personally, that’s your call. You want to think one side is reasonable and the other side is for muppets, that’s also your call. I can’t do anything about how you process what you read and write.

 

[regular_john]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

No embarrassment here, my point absolutely stands.

You waded in with a ridiculous catch all condemnation of large groups of people, I thought I’d join the party. 

You want to take it personally, that’s your call. You want to think one side is reasonable and the other side is for muppets, that’s also your call. I can’t do anything about how you process what you read and write.

 

It quite literally doesn't stand. Islam is not a race.

[bickster]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

"Happily" would be something of a push, but the link that was posted very much suggests that a great many of them did so by choice - a safe homeland was created and a hundreds of thousands of people moved there.

great many or some, what about the others?

[omariqy]

45 minutes ago, regular_john said:

It quite literally doesn't stand. Islam is not a race.

The fact you focus on Islam and don’t mention any transgression caused by any other religion or group, shows you where you stand. Islamophobia is steeped in racism. Criticise Islam all you want. Just don’t generalise based on your complete lack of knowledge of anything to do with it. 

[regular_john]

1 hour ago, omariqy said:

The fact you focus on Islam and don’t mention any transgression caused by any other religion or group, shows you where you stand. Islamophobia is steeped in racism. Criticise Islam all you want. Just don’t generalise based on your complete lack of knowledge of anything to do with it. 

Allow me to preface my answer by saying that I am not a fan of religion in general. I think all religions are difficult, dangerous, and divisive on some way, shape, or form. All religions expect that we believe nonsense, engage in dogmatism rather than rationalism, identify non-believers as the 'other' or as 'outsiders' etc.

 

But, despite this, most of the world's religions are reasonably benign.

 

Islam is different. As a direct consequence of it's doctrines (Jihad, paradise for martyrs of combat, the concept of 'Dar Al-Harb' etc.) and the example of Muhammad, Islam is uniquely aggressive, violent, hostile to critique and free speech, and clearly at odds with modernity and building a peaceful, global civilisation.

 

Islamic fundamentalists are absolutely the worst of any religions fundamentalists. Islam at the level of government leads to nothing but failed states, oppressive dictatorships, and population-wide regression (hence the failure of any meaningful cultural, artistic, scientific etc. development in MENA). Even the majority of so-called moderates have some absolutely appalling views on non-believers, women, homosexuals etc.

 

I focus on Islam because Islam is absolutely the worst religion on the planet. It possibly represents the worst set of ideas that the human mind has ever concocted.

 

That is why I criticise Islam, not because I don't like brown people.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, regular_john said:

It quite literally doesn't stand. Islam is not a race.

Where have I said Islam is a race? That’s the second time you’ve imposed what you think on what I’ve written. Look, I’ve been back and I’ve read it again again. I haven’t said Islam is a race. I’ve said white racists can now express themselves, but in support of Israel. I stand by it.

What is it about that statement you actually disagree with? Is it your opinion that average white racists don’t dislike Muslims? 

 

 

[omariqy]

16 minutes ago, regular_john said:

Allow me to preface my answer by saying that I am not a fan of religion in general. I think all religions are difficult, dangerous, and divisive on some way, shape, or form. All religions expect that we believe nonsense, engage in dogmatism rather than rationalism, identify non-believers as the 'other' or as 'outsiders' etc.

 

But, despite this, most of the world's religions are reasonably benign.

 

Islam is different. As a direct consequence of it's doctrines (Jihad, paradise for martyrs of combat, the concept of 'Dar Al-Harb' etc.) and the example of Muhammad, Islam is uniquely aggressive, violent, hostile to critique and free speech, and clearly at odds with modernity and building a peaceful, global civilisation.

 

Islamic fundamentalists are absolutely the worst of any religions fundamentalists. Islam at the level of government leads to nothing but failed states, oppressive dictatorships, and population-wide regression (hence the failure of any meaningful cultural, artistic, scientific etc. development in MENA). Even the majority of so-called moderates have some absolutely appalling views on non-believers, women, homosexuals etc.

 

I focus on Islam because Islam is absolutely the worst religion on the planet. It possibly represents the worst set of ideas that the human mind has ever concocted.

 

That is why I criticise Islam, not because I don't like brown people.

Again so much ignorance in this post. I don't want to make this thread a defence of Islam thread when people are interested in Palestine and Israel  but I have to make a few points.

Just because a few (and it really is a few when compared to the wider Muslim population) have used doctrine for their own gain and to kill innocent people (which is completely forbidden in Islam) doesnt meant its Islam. Jihad is all about a personal struggle which can be non-violent. Paradise for martyers can also include those innocent people who have been killed in Palestine i.e. non combatants. You need to understand the context of every verse. Some verses are general rules and principles, some are specific to an even happening at the Prophet's time. Islam isn't a non-violent religion by any means, it doesn't pretend to be. Neither is Christianity, Judaism, Sikhism etc. Plenty of atrocities have been commited in every religions name and even in non-religions name. No religion is uniquley aggressive etc. It;s the people that follow those religions that use it in the way they want and take from it what they want for their own gain. Your choice to focus only on Islam is telling.

All fundamentalists are the worst of any fundamentalists. Do I need to bring out the stats? Islam brought in many rights for women to their own property, to a life (at a time when infanticide was rife), to rules of war, rights of prisoners of war, peace treaties, inheritance for women, etc etc. Read about Ibn Sina, the first hospitals, algebra, astronomy etc. Without Muslim scholars translating the greek texts you would not have the rennaissance. During the dark ages, Islam brought knowledge and advancement. Just because the muslim world is in bits at the moment has no bearing on Islam. Without Islam, you still have the destabilisation of the middle east and the consequences of that. 

Dar Al Harb is a concept to do with warring nations. Not those who are peacful towards Islamic nations. Again, you can tell what and who you have been listening to. Do you want me to start quoting Biblical scripture? Plenty have used that for their own gain (cough Nethanyahu). 

Islam continues to be the fastest growing religion in the world for a reason. For men and women alike. 

[VILLAMARV]

Best and worst religions eh. Blair and his bloody league tables for everything

[LondonLax]

43 minutes ago, regular_john said:

Allow me to preface my answer by saying that I am not a fan of religion in general. I think all religions are difficult, dangerous, and divisive on some way, shape, or form. All religions expect that we believe nonsense, engage in dogmatism rather than rationalism, identify non-believers as the 'other' or as 'outsiders' etc.

 

But, despite this, most of the world's religions are reasonably benign.

 

Islam is different. As a direct consequence of it's doctrines (Jihad, paradise for martyrs of combat, the concept of 'Dar Al-Harb' etc.) and the example of Muhammad, Islam is uniquely aggressive, violent, hostile to critique and free speech, and clearly at odds with modernity and building a peaceful, global civilisation.

 

Islamic fundamentalists are absolutely the worst of any religions fundamentalists. Islam at the level of government leads to nothing but failed states, oppressive dictatorships, and population-wide regression (hence the failure of any meaningful cultural, artistic, scientific etc. development in MENA). Even the majority of so-called moderates have some absolutely appalling views on non-believers, women, homosexuals etc.

 

I focus on Islam because Islam is absolutely the worst religion on the planet. It possibly represents the worst set of ideas that the human mind has ever concocted.

 

That is why I criticise Islam, not because I don't like brown people.

This take says to me that you might need to do a bit more research. I would count all the points in rebuttal to this in Roman numerals but it would take me too much time.