magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 20 hours ago, Jareth said: Iran are bad shit, as bad as it gets. But they are demonstrating stability, hell they are making the monies on their drones. I'd say they are a more effective government than Israel. The western world, and I hesitate to include Israel in that, cannot compete with the likes of Iran when its leaders are so compromised, boy do we need someone to stand up and lead but Israel, the US and UK are failing the world big time, there are no ideas, there is no morality, just more of the same. God knows how Israel and Gaza gets solved, but there are no uncompromised leaders to solve it, **** aipac, **** 40% of our next government being Israel funded, nothing changes. I'm so depressed by the state of it. Are you really suggesting a country with widespread repression, shooting of students, purging of minorities and public hanging of people in cranes in the market place is the definition of stable? You’re going to have to prove that 40% of our next government is funded by Israel, or else it’s just something that sounds like it’s said by someone who works for Press TV, with a name that starts with C and ends with hris Williamson. It’s BS, and tropey. The actual overstatement of Israel’s financial capabilities by people with a brain baffle me. Without US aid the country has the GDP of a tiny European nation. The whole finance thing has been disproven 10.000 times and is as stupid as saying that Israel somehow controls the West. Israel gets aid because the alternative is another Holocaust by a religion which has a track record of wiping out everyone who doesn’t convert in the countries that follow said religion’s law. IDF is making it worse every day, but that doesn’t mean that it’s reasonable to just let Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood have their way with Israel. That would dwarf the suffering in Gaza and likely cause a new world war. The issue for Palestinians is that they’ve let themselves be used by Iran, Qatar and other dark forces in the region who really don’t give a hoot about them. They’re stuck between a nation who is known to go all in on war (Israel) when attacked and an Arab/Persian world who would rather have them die martyrs to make a point than actually help. Edited February 4 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 36 minutes ago, magnkarl said: The actual overstatement of Israel’s financial capabilities by people with a brain baffle me. Without US aid the country has the GDP of a tiny European nation. The whole finance thing has been disproven 10.000 times and is as stupid as saying that Israel somehow controls the West. Wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Thug said: Wrong. Is it? Do back your viewpoint up with facts. Meanwhile, here's IMF's data in billions per year, 2023 in the first column: So Israel's GDP is on par with Portugal, war torn Ukraine and Greece. All tiny European economies. Take away US aid of roughly 4 billion in military aid and an undisclosed amount in civilian aid. Edited February 4 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 The GDP of Israel is completely irrelevant In this conversation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Nation Quote Shadow Middle East Minister and Caerphilly MP Wayne David has described as “ridiculous” the suggestion that he and other members of Labour’s Shadow Cabinet are in the pockets of Israel because they have been on expenses-paid trips to the country and in some cases received donations from a pro-Israel lobbyist. An investigation by the news website Declassified, which specialises in British foreign policy issues, has revealed that 13 of the 31 members of Labour’s Shadow Cabinet have received donations from a prominent pro-Israel lobby group or individual funder. It doesn’t prove they’ve been bought, far from it. But post purge, there are a lot of MP’s content to take the money, take the plane tickets, and self monitor their own independence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 13 hours ago, Thug said: I have to type my post out again because, well, I have to. But what you are doing is using a straw man fallacy. Your initial standpoint was that it is ‘literally’ in Iran’s constitution to wipeout all Jews. You then posted a conveniently truncated version of article 14 to ‘prove’ your point. Even this truncated version did not prove your claim in the slightest. When a full version of the article 14 is posted, proving you wrong, you then argue a completely different point - this is where the straw man comes in. You changed the argument from the literal existence within the Iranian constitution to wipe out all Jews, to the fact that the Iranian regime is guilty of this. These are two completely separate claims here. 1. That the Iranian constitution ‘literally’ calls for the ethnic cleansing of Jews 2. The Iranian government is/was carrying out the ethnic cleansing of Jews. Point 1 has been disproven. Point 2 was not disputed. You are using point 2, to argue point 1. I.e your classic ‘straw man’ This is NOT semantics. This is a debating tactic that is used frequently, and has been employed persistently by the western media during the current conflict for propaganda purposes. I would appreciate it if you would withdraw your false claim that the ethnic cleansing of Jewish people was ‘literally’ in the Iranian constitution - this is a lie, and you are spreading disinformation. Posting truncated versions of articles to suit your agenda and support your narratives is not ethically sound. I guess you got it from Wikipedia. I suggest in future, to prevent misunderstandings, you go directly to the source you are quoting. If you want to make your claim that the Iranian government are/were/will carry out the ethnic cleansing of Jews under the veil of article 14 by making false charges, be my guest. You won’t have an argument from me. It’s a disgusting practice when Iran do it, and it’s a disgusting practice when Israel do it, and it’s a disgusting practice when the US use their anti-terrorism laws to hold people without charge for decades in Guantanamo bay. Misusing the constitution is NOT the same as your claim. You really do not want to wrap your head around how a law is practiced compared to what it says, do you? There's something called legal precedent, and in Iran the legal precedent is to use article 14 to eradicate minorities. No one, including the so called 'judges' in the Iranian Republic, cares what it says in some verse before article 14, when the reality is that article 14 is used in pretty much all repression of minorities. It was used ruthlessly on the 100.000 or so Jews of Iran after the coup, and now it is ruthlessly used against the Kurds, Zoroastrians and whatever other minority Iran's Ayatollahs want to wipe out. You seem to think that these people care about the other parts of their constitution when it comes to minorities, but the legal precedent in Iran is that article 14 litterally null and voids all rights of minorities, starting with Jews in 1979. So yes, the whole legal intention of the Iranian article 14 was to wipe out all minorities, starting with Jews, then Kurds, then Coptic Christians, Zoroastrians, Sunnis and other minorities. You seem to think that because a brutal dictatorship puts in some fluff about rights somewhwere in their constitution that it null and voids both legal practice and reality. We'll have to agree to disagree. Edited February 4 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 11 minutes ago, Thug said: The GDP of Israel is completely irrelevant In this conversation. I'm sure there's some term to describe this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I'm sure there's some term to describe this. Oh what would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Nation It doesn’t prove they’ve been bought, far from it. But post purge, there are a lot of MP’s content to take the money, take the plane tickets, and self monitor their own independence. Lobbying is a curse, no one disagrees. But there's got to be something more concrete than a plane ticket to prove that '40% of the coming government' is paid for by Israel. It's naive and unproven, and conspiratorial at best. I'd wager (conspiratorially) that the same group of MP's were likely also on trips to many other countries, and that the Israeli money is a drop in the ocean compared to what they get from industry lobby organisations and unions, or a few active MP's have had from working for foreign government TV stations. Edited February 4 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 minutes ago, Thug said: Oh what would that be? To me it sounds like someone saying someone is wrong, then backing out when realising that they themselves were wrong. You're going to have to explain what was 'wrong' about what was written, if you meant something else. Tracks go backwards too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 4 VT Supporter Share Posted February 4 14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Nation It doesn’t prove they’ve been bought, far from it. But post purge, there are a lot of MP’s content to take the money, take the plane tickets, and self monitor their own independence. He's definitely not biased. But if you asked him to criticise Israel, his cheek would start twitching, sweat would pour from his brow, blood drip from his nose, his hands uncontrollably shake, and he'd quickly wibble off to the nearest fire escape/exit/bathroom/cupboard to hide until you've gone. Or he'd say that Israel works too hard, makes cups of too well, and they're just too nice. And then wibble off to ensure head office wasn't going to purge him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Thug said: FFS. Is there something wrong with you? What is so hard to understand about this? THE ABOVE POINT IS NOT BEING DISPUTED. Your lie about it being ‘literally in the constitution’ is what was being disputed. And you’re arguing something completely different. Take a minute man, read what was written. I'm not arguing something completely different, even with your colourful language suggesting that I do. The constitution literally calls for the destruction of minorities, of which the first one to be hit were Jews, by having an article which the Ayatollahs wield at their whim. It's not 'misuse of the constitution' as you so eloquently put it, it's designed that way to do what it does. A comparable example in our own constitution is that I could go to Chester and shoot a Welsh person with a bow and arrow on royal decree, but I'd still be charged with murder because other articles trump the fluff about shooting people with bows and arrows. Edited February 4 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 12 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Lobbying is a curse, no one disagrees. But there's got to be something more concrete than a plane ticket to prove that '40% of the coming government' is paid for by Israel. It's naive and unproven, and conspiratorial at best. I'd wager (conspiratorially) that the same group of MP's were likely also on trips to many other countries, and that the Israeli money is a drop in the ocean compared to what they get from industry lobby organisations and unions, or a few active MP's have had from working for foreign government TV stations. Would you be of the same opinion, if MP’s that have been on pro Ceasefire marches received a free trip to The West Bank, paid for by a group based in Jordan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Would you be of the same opinion, if MP’s that have been on pro Ceasefire marches received a free trip to The West Bank, paid for by a group based in Jordan? 29 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Lobbying is a curse, no one disagrees In my opinion no one should be able to pay for anything for someone who's been elected in a democracy. That ranges from going to a Black September memorial, working for Press TV, taking shekels from Benny or paying off 40% of all the politicians in the Labour party. I don't think it's hard, so I don't understand why any of them are doing it. MP's and politicians are paid more than enough, they don't need to moonlight for Israel, Jordan or whichever other country or organisation they feel like pressuring our political system on behalf of. Edited February 4 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 I don't really have much of a dog in this fight, but if we're suggesting that someone unpleasant giving some favour means that their ideology in forever entwined and their future policy will be based around a free plane ticket or a paid-for-interview, then they really have accept that the Labour party 2015 - 2020 was aligned with the theocracy of Iran and Vladimir Putin. I don't personally think that they were, I just think that they're naive hypocrites. But their supporters should definitely reflect over which glass houses they're chucking their stones at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 22 minutes ago, ml1dch said: I don't really have much of a dog in this fight, but if we're suggesting that someone unpleasant giving some favour means that their ideology in forever entwined and their future policy will be based around a free plane ticket or a paid-for-interview, then they really have accept that the Labour party 2015 - 2020 was aligned with the theocracy of Iran and Vladimir Putin. I don't personally think that they were, I just think that they're naive hypocrites. But their supporters should definitely reflect over which glass houses they're chucking their stones at. I think you might have the time frame slightly askew. People were criticised for being on the wrong platform, or the wrong march, or giving interviews in the wrong places and not condemning the right people.. Now the glove is on the other foot, but it no longer appears to be so much off a problem when the ethnic cleansing is by Israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted February 5 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5 7 hours ago, magnkarl said: or paying off 40% of all the politicians in the Labour party. Who has done this?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) 49 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: Who has done this?! It was a claim previously made by @Jareth, even with a lot of digging I can't find corroborating evidence of it anywhere. As @chrisp65 wrote, some MPs have been stupid enough to accept a plane ticket to Israel off some lobbyist, but I suspect that the same people also take whatever else they can get their grimy paws on. The 40% claim is unproven, and likely false. Edited February 5 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 7 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I think you might have the time frame slightly askew. People were criticised for being on the wrong platform, or the wrong march, or giving interviews in the wrong places and not condemning the right people.. Now the glove is on the other foot, but it no longer appears to be so much off a problem when the ethnic cleansing is by Israel. Do you not think these people are critisised? As far as I can see, there's several press projects and digging groups founded just to do exactly what you describe which is why these MPs have been found out. I wish our MPs had issues with being bought by WWF or Mossy Earth rather than foreign players, big oil, big pharma or their buddy who sells wall-paper, but it appears that our political system is totally saturated by MPs receiving 'gifts' from people wanting to pressure them in some shape or another. My view on it is that I don't think Israel has a faster horse in that game than most other states, and that Iran and Russia's axis likes to put these 'hints' out there when the reality is that both those countries likely spend a lot more trying to pressure MPs than Israel does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 5 Moderator Share Posted February 5 47 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: Who has done this?! It wasn’t Magnkarl who claimed this, he's referencing a previous claim by someone else up thread iirc. I think (and could well be wrong) that it may reference that 40% of the Shadow Cabinet may belong to the group Labour Friends of Israel. If so it’s not a particularly accurate figure as the numbers were about 25% of Labour MPs rising to 33% of the Shadow Cabinet (around 2020). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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