Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

50 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said:

Do you really not understand this?

Israel are being backed by the West, therefore marching and protests in western countries could potentially influence the governments of these countries.

The actions of ISIS and Assad cannot be influenced by any protesting.

How about when Saudi Arabia bombs Yemen with British made missiles and American made planes? Or when Iraqi police use Abrams tanks to drive into Kurdish villages in Northern Iraq to throw people out? The question surely has more to it than just being our allies, in that case there should be protests for the 1.4 million civilian deaths in Yemen, a lot of which are caused by Saudi forces with our backing. That's many times over the casualties in Israel\Palestine. In fact the situation in Yemen is fairly similar where you have an Iranian backed terrorist organisation who's attacked the country and taken over, and our ally is bombing them whilst hitting an awful lot of civilians in the process.

Edited November 22, 2023 by magnkarl

[Mr_Dogg]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

How about when Saudi Arabia bombs Yemen with British made missiles and American made planes? Or when Iraqi police use Abrams tanks to drive into Kurdish villages in Northern Iraq to throw people out? The question surely has more to it than just being our allies, in that case there should be protests for the 1.4 million civilian deaths in Yemen, a lot of which are caused by Saudi forces with our backing. That's many times over the casualties in Israel\Palestine. In fact the situation in Yemen is fairly similar where you have an Iranian backed terrorist organisation who's attacked the country and taken over, and our ally is bombing them.

You have valid points but the government of the US and UK are not coming out publicly and backing these events are they? If you were to follow the trail of who is making what weapons it becomes a mess as the morals of weapons makers are non existent.

Israel is a western ally landed in the ME. It is completely different situation and I don't think the reaction to what they are doing is hypocritical.

[bickster]

46 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said:

Israel is a western ally landed in the ME. It is completely different situation and I don't think the reaction to what they are doing is hypocritical.

So is Saudi when it attacks Houthi Rebels with UK / US kit (and UKAF trainers in situ with the Saudis). Houthi Rebels being supported by Iran / Russia.

Can you not see the similarity?

 

[Mr_Dogg]

5 minutes ago, bickster said:

So is Saudi when it attacks Houthi Rebels with UK / US kit (and UKAF trainers in situ with the Saudis). Houthi Rebels being supported by Iran / Russia.

Can you not see the similarity?

 

The people of the UK are entitled to protest but they don't. Probably because it simply does not get the coverage. But to my knowledge, the UK has not come out and backed Saudi actions unlike they have for Israel, it is more covert.

 

 

[magnkarl]

3 hours ago, Mr_Dogg said:

You have valid points but the government of the US and UK are not coming out publicly and backing these events are they? If you were to follow the trail of who is making what weapons it becomes a mess as the morals of weapons makers are non existent.

Israel is a western ally landed in the ME. It is completely different situation and I don't think the reaction to what they are doing is hypocritical.

We've supported Saudi Arabia openly many times, and we're essentially keeping that war going. By comparison Palestinians say something like 100.000 people have been killed on both sides in Israel\Palestine, while the number in Yemen is reportedly 1.4 million, 14 times that of what is happening in Palestine\Israel. I think Palestine is just the popular thing to protest, rather than being protested equally with all the other horrible ¤#%# that is going on with our allies. It's been certain groups' focus in our political climate for decades, while other causes are in reality much worse and get absolutely zero coverage or championing.

‘The Saudis couldn’t do it without us’: the UK’s true role in Yemen’s deadly war

Quote

For more than four years, a brutal Saudi air campaign has bombarded Yemen, killing tens of thousands, injuring hundreds of thousands and displacing millions – creating the world’s worst humanitarian crisis. And British weapons are doing much of the killing. Every day Yemen is hit by British bombs – dropped by British planes that are flown by British-trained pilots and maintained and prepared inside Saudi Arabia by thousands of British contractors.

Around 80 serving RAF personnel work inside Saudi Arabia. Sometimes they work for BAE to assist in maintaining and preparing aircraft. At other times they work as auditors to ensure that BAE is fulfilling its Ministry of Defence contracts. Additional RAF “liaison officers” work inside the command-and-control centre, from where targets in Yemen are selected.

Look at that last sentence. In this thread people accused us of giving Israel intel to bomb Gaza, while in Yemen it is us that is doing the actual targeting. The same targeting which has displaced millions of people.

How about protesting Turkey's displacement and continued cleansing of Kurdistan? They're in our military alliance.

Not to sound like whataboutery, but that is the sort of argument I get back when I talk to the few people I know in Israel, it's a hard argument to argue with because it's inherently true, and then you've got the short connection between holding Israel to a higher standard than your other allies because of who lives there and all the shit slinging that follows. An example if you will, while I was talking to my friend in Israel yesterday they had the TV on in the background and there was a programme on about how people in the football world are all for Palestinians now, but many of the same idiots defended Qatar's right to the WC, knowing full well that a lot of Palestinian refugees were essentially used as slave labour to erect the stadiums in both Saudi Arabia and Qatar. 

There's posters in this thread who defended Qatar and SA's right to the WC at the top of their throats during the WC last year, essentially dismissing everything going on with a large minority Palestinian refugee population in these two countries then, who are now posting a lot about how horrible this situation is. I guess it's good that they've found their voice, but it seems to only be found in relation to Israel for many - at least that's the general feeling with my left leaning Israeli friends.

Edited November 22, 2023 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

Nah, the help we give Saudi Arabia wouldn’t be killing innocent civilians. 

Just like it isn’t in Gaza.

 

[magnkarl]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Nah, the help we give Saudi Arabia wouldn’t be killing innocent civilians. 

Just like it isn’t in Gaza.

 

I would say that both instances are examples of things British foreign policy has absolutely failed at, like most things we've done in the ME. We somehow manage to deliver weapons to Ukraine that come with caveats and trackers to stop them being used on Russian soil, while with Saudi Arabia, UAE and Israel we let three murderous regimes carpet bomb people with BAE-systems weaponry in British Fighters, and in SA's case help them target and train, and maintain their fighters. SA's example goes well beyond anything we do for Israel. Imagine if we 'sold' those Eurofighters to Ukraine rather than SA.

The root cause of the issue is Iran, we're skirting around a country which thrives on destabilizing everyone around them at a tune of millions of dead and several tens of millions displaced. Palestine is the target this time, I'd wager the next country is Lebanon, and then Syria for a second round of civil war. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

So where is the general VT consensus on Gary Lineker retweeting academics on Israel?

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, Jareth said:

So where is the general VT consensus on Gary Lineker retweeting academics on Israel?

You are the only person who has mentioned it, because I guess most of us don't care what he says on a day to day basis, which is the opposite of what throbby MPs would have you believe.

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

So where is the general VT consensus on Gary Lineker retweeting academics on Israel?

Somewhere between a big shrug of the shoulders and a gif of a tumbleweed. 

A bit like Chris Waddle's opinions on Yemen or what Des Walker has to say about the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

[Delphinho123]

I’m starting to think Iran may be the root cause of most of the problems in the Middle East.. 

Id be interested to see how *proper* regime change (one more in line with western beliefs) there affects every scenario you’re all talking about. 

[chrisp65]

4 hours ago, Delphinho123 said:

I’m starting to think Iran may be the root cause of most of the problems in the Middle East.. 

Id be interested to see how *proper* regime change (one more in line with western beliefs) there affects every scenario you’re all talking about. 

Population of nearly 90 million and protected by its geography. Friends include Russia and Syria.

Regime change ain’t happening any time soon and certainly not due to external military action.

What would be better for everyone, would be the US and europe and Israel helping other less odious regimes prosper on their doorstep and let the Iranian people see what they are missing out on. Which would be easier had we not **** up the Iraq adventure, Yemen, and Palestine.

Perhaps the best thing we can do for that whole region is slash our reliance on oil.

[Mic09]

This is incredible, I can't believe I only found out about this. 

So, during the Shabbat, practicing Jews should not carry things outside of their homes that might be forbidden. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it's all to do with private property/public domain.

This is obviously next to impossible in the modern world.

So, many cities, and you will find a list here from wiki, have set a boundry to allow everything basically becoming 'one area' making the restriction easier to get past

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_places_with_eruvin 

Apparently, Manhattan has a literal string around it, just to make it 'one area' and make sure Jews are not breaking religious laws. 

I have heard about elevators stopping on each floor as to not press a button during the Shabbat, but this is next level. Apparently it costs $100,000 a year to maintain the line in Manhattan, and you even have links to see if the line is in good condition:

https://www.eruv.co.uk/

Incredible stuff. 
 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Mic09

[magnkarl]

It's good to see these kind of people come out of the woodwork so that we can hopefully deal with them and the views, and that our police are doing absolutely nothing about it. You'd think that going to a liberal democracy makes you think about your views, but this war has essentially emboldened the worst people in many circles.

'Religion of peace', I'd say that most religions are all but peaceful.

 

[OutByEaster?]

52 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You'd think that going to a liberal democracy makes you think about your views.

There's probably something in this phrase about the double standard that people have talked about in terms of how UK (and other Western) populations react to Israel in comparison to the way they've reacted to the horrific crimes committed for example in Yemen by the Saudis.

I think you're correct that that we're harsher on these people, than we would be if they were in a mosque in Iraq, because they are part of a liberal democracy and we expect them to have shared values with us - and I think we're harsher on Israel for the very same reasons - because they're a liberal democracy, we expect them to share the values we do. It's a form of guilt I expect and the thing about having a mirror held up to what we're all capable of - life is easier when our "thems" are not also "us's" and we lash out when confronted by the idea that those labels might not really be true or helpful.

I don't know if I'm quite getting that point right and I have to go to work, but I hope it makes some sense.

[Jareth]

Quite the liberal democratic bed fellow 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jareth

[icouldtelltheworld]

 

On 22/11/2023 at 09:54, magnkarl said:

How about when Saudi Arabia bombs Yemen with British made missiles and American made planes? Or when Iraqi police use Abrams tanks to drive into Kurdish villages in Northern Iraq to throw people out? The question surely has more to it than just being our allies, in that case there should be protests for the 1.4 million civilian deaths in Yemen, a lot of which are caused by Saudi forces with our backing. That's many times over the casualties in Israel\Palestine. In fact the situation in Yemen is fairly similar where you have an Iranian backed terrorist organisation who's attacked the country and taken over, and our ally is bombing them whilst hitting an awful lot of civilians in the process.

There have been several demonstrations in Birmingham over the past few years protesting against Britain's role in the Yemeni civil war, and also several in support of various Kurdish causes. It's weird how some people of a more pro-Israeli persuasion seem to overlook this and try to act as though those on pro-Palestinian marches ignore/aren't bothered by other similar injustices elsewhere. It's an entirely false representation and about as helpful to the overall debate as circular arguments about the rights and wrongs surrounding the establishment of Israel in the 1940s.

Of course, the core difference between Israel/Palestine and the ongoing situations in Yemen or Northern Syria is that Israel paints itself as a Liberal democracy. As such, it can expect to be held to a much higher standard by the international community (particularly those in Western Liberal democracies) when it commits mass atrocities 

Edited November 24, 2023 by icouldtelltheworld

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Quite the liberal democratic bed fellow 

I'd love some background on where Jeremy got this information from, considering it's got 'potentially' listed in his post. What does he classify as a child?

Also, I'd suggest you go and throw a rock at someone and see if you don't get arrested. What a weird thing to argue. Lobbing rocks at people are criminal offenses in both Israel and the U.K.

Edited November 24, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

10 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I'd love some background on where Jeremy got this information from, considering it's got 'potentially' listed in his post. What does he classify as a child?

Also, I'd suggest you go and throw a rock at someone and see if you don't get arrested. What a weird thing to argue. Lobbing rocks at people are criminal offenses in both Israel and the U.K.

What do you classify as a child?

Also see follow up tweet 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by Jareth

[Mic09]

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

What do you classify as a child?

Also see follow up tweet 

 

Wait, so were they 'kidnapped' ?