Israel, Palestine and Iran

[blandy]

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I think you forgot the part that so many people in the West are blatantly holding Israel to a higher standard on than themselves

I’m not sure I see that. My perception is that the same parts of western society that oppose what Israel is doing, or how they are doing it, are those that opposed what the west did, and/ or how they did it, in Iraq and Syria and Libya. In other words people that condemn the indiscriminate killing of people in Palestine by Israel tend to oppose indiscriminate killing anywhere, by anyone.

The extent of the killing by Israeli forces is perhaps on another level, too. Not in total numbers (yet), but in the nature of it and in the short timeframe and in the difference between the official line from Israel and the evidence from the voices of those doing the killing and those witnessing the killing. It seems clear to me that Israel is intent on trying to ( they won’t succeed) eliminate Hamas, with almost zero regard for avoiding civilian casualties. You simply cannot drop as many bombs as they have on one of the most densely packed places on earth and claim to be making every effort to avoid civilian casualties.

Probably the only comparable western activity is Fallujah and while there are some similarities the number of civilians killed was much lower and it should also be pointed out that it was basically the US who carried out the operation. The UK got cold feet in the run up, due to concerns about likely civilian deaths and the general reaction to what happened was pretty similar to that right now.

[magnkarl]

48 minutes ago, blandy said:

I’m not sure I see that. My perception is that the same parts of western society that oppose what Israel is doing, or how they are doing it, are those that opposed what the west did, and/ or how they did it, in Iraq and Syria and Libya. In other words people that condemn the indiscriminate killing of people in Palestine by Israel tend to oppose indiscriminate killing anywhere, by anyone.

The extent of the killing by Israeli forces is perhaps on another level, too. Not in total numbers (yet), but in the nature of it and in the short timeframe and in the difference between the official line from Israel and the evidence from the voices of those doing the killing and those witnessing the killing. It seems clear to me that Israel is intent on trying to ( they won’t succeed) eliminate Hamas, with almost zero regard for avoiding civilian casualties. You simply cannot drop as many bombs as they have on one of the most densely packed places on earth and claim to be making every effort to avoid civilian casualties.

Probably the only comparable western activity is Fallujah and while there are some similarities the number of civilians killed is much lower and it should also be pointed out that it was basically the US who carried out the operation. The UK got cold feet in the run up, due to concerns about likely civilian deaths and the general reaction to what happened was pretty similar to that right now.

I don't disagree, and I guess we'll wait to see how much damage Israel's breaches of human rights does compared to our own. I guess that's also why America and the U.K are so adamantly on Israel's side here, as we've dealt with terrorists in pretty much the same way (especially ISIS and parts of the Iraqi\Syrian\Afghan wars).

[OutByEaster?]

6 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Amnesty seems to think that it was a base used for torture by Hamas in 2014, so I don't really see why Hamas would've withdrawn from it.

I don't disagree at all with the wider point you're making - but what I would say is that I think there are some very clear and obvious reasons why Hamas would withdraw from a known base under the hospital.

It's an obvious target that has been doomed to destruction pretty much from the start of the Israeli response to October 7th - I'd have thought that Hamas would have done their best to get as much of their equipment and as many of their personnel out of there and spread into other parts of Gaza as soon as they could - perhaps even in advance of October 7th. Hamas' success (excuse the word) tactically will depend almost entirely on their ability to keep themselves out of the places that Israel will expect them to be in.

[magnkarl]

33 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't disagree at all with the wider point you're making - but what I would say is that I think there are some very clear and obvious reasons why Hamas would withdraw from a known base under the hospital.

It's an obvious target that has been doomed to destruction pretty much from the start of the Israeli response to October 7th - I'd have thought that Hamas would have done their best to get as much of their equipment and as many of their personnel out of there and spread into other parts of Gaza as soon as they could - perhaps even in advance of October 7th. Hamas' success (excuse the word) tactically will depend almost entirely on their ability to keep themselves out of the places that Israel will expect them to be in.

But as far as I gather this was the 'best' shelter they had, I'm sure they've moved things to newer locations that Israel doesn't know about too though, and I'm also fairly certain that they've got tunnels out of Gaza.

[omariqy]

I mean it still doesn’t excuse bombing civilians in other hospitals or refugee camps or schools or ambulances. I can’t share on here as Instagram but I see another innocent family has been killed in the last few minutes who have no connection to Hamas, most are under 10. I think it’s 50 entire family trees have been wiped out so far in a space of a month. That’s devestating.

On Al Shifa, if they built the tunnels themselves then surely they have blueprints and know another way to deal with it? Or am I being naive?

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, omariqy said:

I mean it still doesn’t excuse bombing civilians in other hospitals or refugee camps or schools or ambulances. I can’t share on here as Instagram but I see another innocent family has been killed in the last few minutes who have no connection to Hamas, most are under 10. I think it’s 50 entire family trees have been wiped out so far in a space of a month. That’s devestating.

On Al Shifa, if they built the tunnels themselves then surely they have blueprints and know another way to deal with it? Or am I being naive?

Based on which side you believe (I find both extremely unreliable) Israel have offered fuel to the hospital, Hamas have again taken it and are essentially holding their own people hostage at the hospital.

According to Hamas the hospital has been bombed several times, though it seems no doctors are corroborating this. I don't think there is a good way to deal with the situation unless you can find out how to get into the tunnels and taking out Hamas without them killing hostages and civilians. No one is suffering more than the Palestinian people under the heel of two armies who seem hell bent on using them as collateral. 

It's a #¤%#¤ situation.

[magnkarl]

Here's a video showing an alleged other tunnel network under a children's hospital. Pardon the daily heil.

[magnkarl]

On 14/11/2023 at 09:14, omariqy said:

 

Here's the video this guy used to claim the above being thoroughly debunked by the OSINT community.

 

[His Name Is Death]

  

27 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Here's a video showing an alleged other tunnel network under a children's hospital. Pardon the daily heil.

Isn't that the guy who pointed at a "hostage keepers' list" with "terrorist names" on it which was actually just a calendar and the 'names' were the days of the week?

(Ah, I see that very thing appears near the end.)

Edited November 15, 2023 by His Name Is Death

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, His Name Is Death said:

  

Isn't that the guy who pointed at a "hostage keepers' list" with "terrorist names" on it which was actually just a calendar and the 'names' were the days of the week?

No idea, I wrote alleged for a reason, though the geo location of the outside shots are clearly at the hospital, it's hard to verify the rest until actual reporters with editorial standards (not twitter warriors from either side, Hamas or IDF), can get access. 

[omariqy]

 

[bickster]

25 minutes ago, omariqy said:

 

Does she realise the UN Charter says otherwise?

The UN Charter. Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter prohibits the threat or use of force in international relations. However, Article 51 allows for a short-term limitation to this prohibition, permitting individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs until the Security Council takes necessary measures to maintain international peace and security1. In essence, self-defense is the only legal justification for using force without UN authorization.

Has the UN Security Council taken any measures to maintain peace and security?

[omariqy]

31 minutes ago, bickster said:

Does she realise the UN Charter says otherwise?

The UN Charter. Article 2(4) of the United Nations Charter prohibits the threat or use of force in international relations. However, Article 51 allows for a short-term limitation to this prohibition, permitting individual or collective self-defense if an armed attack occurs until the Security Council takes necessary measures to maintain international peace and security1. In essence, self-defense is the only legal justification for using force without UN authorization.

Has the UN Security Council taken any measures to maintain peace and security?

I think over riding point is that Gaza isn’t a state and Israel is an occupying force therefore it can’t behave like its fighting another state. It has to apply law and order measures etc. Israel is citing article 51, 95% of the international community disagree with this.

 

[chrisp65]

Surely there can’t be many people that would say Israel couldn’t strike back. They have every right to go after Hamas, and it’s accepted there are going to be some civilian casualties in doing that. As grim as it sounds, that’s just how it is.

It’s the weeks and weeks of relentless deliberate murder and the flattening of infrastructure as mass group punishment that might just be a bit much.

As for a Daily Mail video of embedded IDF journalism, that’s pretty much on my ‘no thanks’ list alongside LowKey. I was going to ask if that was the video with the absolute proof of a hostage HQ, a calendar, but I see that’s already been spotted. We’re at a point where the ludicrous claims from both sides make pretty much any footage pointless.

I said right up at the start that Hamas are as bad as the IDF. Five weeks in and nothing has changed my mind, it’s a murderous bloody thirsty part of the world.

 

[meregreen]

5 minutes ago, omariqy said:

I think over riding point is that Gaza isn’t a state and Israel is an occupying force therefore it can’t behave like its fighting another state. It has to apply law and order measures etc. Israel is citing article 51, 95% of the international community disagree with this.

 

Where does it state that the attackers have to be a state.Thousands of murderous terrorists intent on mass slaughter, would I think be regarded as something the Israelis would have a right to defend themselves from.

[chrisp65]

As an aside, tomorrow evening its Lebanon vs Palestine in a World Cup Qualifier at a neutral venue in the UAE.

Israel are away to Romania on Saturday.

 

 

 

[omariqy]

20 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Surely there can’t be many people that would say Israel couldn’t strike back. They have every right to go after Hamas, and it’s accepted there are going to be some civilian casualties in doing that. As grim as it sounds, that’s just how it is.

It’s the weeks and weeks of relentless deliberate murder and the flattening of infrastructure as mass group punishment that might just be a bit much.

As for a Daily Mail video of embedded IDF journalism, that’s pretty much on my ‘no thanks’ list alongside LowKey. I was going to ask if that was the video with the absolute proof of a hostage HQ, a calendar, but I see that’s already been spotted. We’re at a point where the ludicrous claims from both sides make pretty much any footage pointless.

I said right up at the start that Hamas are as bad as the IDF. Five weeks in and nothing has changed my mind, it’s a murderous bloody thirsty part of the world.

 

Yeah that’s where I’m at tbh

[Keyblade]

7 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I think you're right, but I think you forgot the part that so many people in the West are blatantly holding Israel to a higher standard on than themselves. Bombing. Schools, hospitals, civilian areas etc. To the few Israelis I know it all just seems a bit rich, that a) the West reacts when Israel bombs an opponent that massacred more people than pretty much all European terrorist attacks in the last 20 years combined, b) that the Arab world has the audacity to say that what Israel is doing is genocide, all the while being neutral, or better yet, selling arms to a Russian state willfully killing people on a much larger scale than Israel. The same Arab states calls what Israel is doing apartheid, when in example Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Iran, Turkey +++ treat minorities in their own countries much worse than Israel does to Arabs and Bedouin within Israel, Saudi Arabia alone keep around 750.000 Palestinians as modern day slaves.

My counter to them is always that there's a bit of whataboutery to it, but it does at least in some cases ring very true. I think they feel that the are called out on this because they are Jewish, that it takes a Jewish nation's war to bring 400 000 people into the street to protest, while the same protests against Russia's brutal attack on a neighbour possibly brings out 1000 people. I try to explain that we protest because we expect more from our allies, and remind them that a reported 1 million people protested against the invasion of Iraq in 2003 - but at the back of my mind I also see certain elements to said protest who use it as a shield to be exactly what my friends in Israel accuse them of. It's all in all a very tough discussion to have.

I don't see how this is true when almost all if not all the major western powers are providing moral support if not material support in some cases. They're being pretty consistent. The fact that regular citizens oppose what is also pretty historically consistent as the Iraq war saw the largest ever protest at the time.

[Keyblade]

59 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Surely there can’t be many people that would say Israel couldn’t strike back. They have every right to go after Hamas, and it’s accepted there are going to be some civilian casualties in doing that. As grim as it sounds, that’s just how it is.

It’s the weeks and weeks of relentless deliberate murder and the flattening of infrastructure as mass group punishment that might just be a bit much.

As for a Daily Mail video of embedded IDF journalism, that’s pretty much on my ‘no thanks’ list alongside LowKey. I was going to ask if that was the video with the absolute proof of a hostage HQ, a calendar, but I see that’s already been spotted. We’re at a point where the ludicrous claims from both sides make pretty much any footage pointless.

I said right up at the start that Hamas are as bad as the IDF. Five weeks in and nothing has changed my mind, it’s a murderous bloody thirsty part of the world.

 

You can pretty much discount anything coming from someone talking to or showing something to a camera at this point. The amount of disinformation out there is overwhelming. It's almost like the war is being fought on at least 2 fronts, with the internet being one of them. 

[MaVilla]

17 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

You can pretty much discount anything coming from someone talking to or showing something to a camera at this point. The amount of disinformation out there is overwhelming. It's almost like the war is being fought on at least 2 fronts, with the internet being one of them. 

tbf, thats all wars over the last.......50 years?