Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, El Segundo said:

Really? And finally a good old AS accusation trope.

So let me get it straight, it's ok to dismiss sources as pro-Hamas or Pro-Iran, and that's not anti-Arab or anti-Islamic or anti-anything?.

On the other hand casting doubt on sources for alleged Israeli connections is anti-Semitic? Even though the poster specifies Israel, not the Jewish people as a whole?

Just checking like, cos it seems somewhat hypocritical to me, not to mention unfounded.     

So you agree that all major UK publications have links to Israel then?

You get how that looks? All major publications are somehow linked and doing the bidding of Israel, a state of below the number of people living in an average European capital supposedly controlling all major publications in one of the largest countries in Europe.

Let’s call a spade a spade. When a reporter works for Hezbollah, Al-Quds or Hamas, it isn’t anti-Arab to point that out. Just like it isn’t antisemitic to point out that someone working for The Jewish Chronicle is biased. 

Saying that the only Jewish state in the world controls all media in a democratic nation however, falls squarely into a trope.

Edited November 14, 2023 by magnkarl

[El Segundo]

15 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

So you agree that all major UK publications have links to Israel then?

You get how that looks? All major publications are somehow linked and doing the bidding of Israel, a state of below the number of people living in an average European capital supposedly controlling all major publications in one of the largest countries in Europe.

Let’s call a spade a spade. When a reporter works for Hezbollah, Al-Quds or Hamas, it isn’t anti-Arab to point that out. Just like it isn’t antisemitic to point out that someone working for The Jewish Chronicle is biased. 

Saying that the only Jewish state in the world controls all media in a democratic nation however, falls squarely into a trope.

I didn't say I agreed so stop trying to put words in my mouth to bolster your bluster.

I get how anyone trying to deflect criticism of Israel by playing the AS card want it t look.  To people who know the difference between criticism of Israel and AS, I'm sure it looks just fine.  

Who said "controlling all major publications"? I believe the OP mentioned "links to Israel".  Just a bit different don't you think? Your hyperbole getting the better of you again/making stuff up again.

Apart from the fact you have dismissed official news sources like Al Jazeera as well, you are missing the point.  I don't think dismissing those sources is anti-Arab.  Anymore than I think suspecting certain sources are pro-Iraesli is anti-semitic.  I was just pointing out the contradiction in attitude.     

Your last sentence - the phrase "links to Israel" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there isn't it?  Bit of a leap from that to "the only Jewish state in the world controlling all media in a democratic nation".  The reference was to the state of Israel acting as a state, not as a Jewish entity.  Sure Israel is a Jewish state, sure it's the only one, but that's not all it is. It's a state that's acting in breach of the Geneva convention, International Law, multiple UN resolutions and various Human Rights.  Should it be exempt from negative comments for that because it's a Jewish state?  One that doesn't even represent all Jews?  Your accusation is just reductionism so you can again try to play the AS card to deflect valid criticism of a country behaving appallingly.  

 

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

…

 so stop trying to put words in my mouth to bolster your bluster...

Your accusation is just reductionism so you can again try to play the AS card to deflect valid criticism of a country behaving appallingly.  

 

You could do with taking your own initial advice with regards to that last sentence not only that I suggest you read the good number of posts in this topic that he’s made where he does actually criticise Israel and it’s government quite extensively.

Practice what you preach. Oh and stop putting words in his mouth.

[magnkarl]

33 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

I didn't say I agreed so stop trying to put words in my mouth to bolster your bluster.

I get how anyone trying to deflect criticism of Israel by playing the AS card want it t look.  To people who know the difference between criticism of Israel and AS, I'm sure it looks just fine.  

Who said "controlling all major publications"? I believe the OP mentioned "links to Israel".  Just a bit different don't you think? Your hyperbole getting the better of you again/making stuff up again.

Apart from the fact you have dismissed official news sources like Al Jazeera as well, you are missing the point.  I don't think dismissing those sources is anti-Arab.  Anymore than I think suspecting certain sources are pro-Iraesli is anti-semitic.  I was just pointing out the contradiction in attitude.     

Your last sentence - the phrase "links to Israel" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there isn't it?  Bit of a leap from that to "the only Jewish state in the world controlling all media in a democratic nation".  The reference was to the state of Israel acting as a state, not as a Jewish entity.  Sure Israel is a Jewish state, sure it's the only one, but that's not all it is. It's a state that's acting in breach of the Geneva convention, International Law, multiple UN resolutions and various Human Rights.  Should it be exempt from negative comments for that because it's a Jewish state?  One that doesn't even represent all Jews?  Your accusation is just reductionism so you can again try to play the AS card to deflect valid criticism of a country behaving appallingly.  

 

Did I make stuff up?

Are all major publications in the UK linked to Israel? That was the statement you’re now defending.

There are clear examples where swapping out the word Jew with Israel is AS, as I’m sure you’re aware. Just like when someone’s holding Israel accountable for somehow being the link that connects all major publications in the UK with no evidence. It builds on a myth that’s been spun for generations just like the banking, the overlordship and screaming ’zioooooo’ at random Jewish people. 

And to be frank, in my initial exchange with you I’ve clearly stated my dislike for the Israeli government and its countless  breaches of human rights, did you already forget, or are you trying to dismiss what I’ve said as some sort of defence of Israel?

Edited November 14, 2023 by magnkarl

[omariqy]

8 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Did I make stuff up?

Are all major publications in the UK linked to Israel? That was the statement you’re now defending.

There are clear examples where swapping out the word Jew with Israel is AS, as I’m sure you’re aware. Just like when someone’s holding Israel accountable for somehow being the link that connects all major publications in the UK with no evidence. It builds on a myth that’s been spun for generations.

And to be frank, in my initial exchange with you I’ve clearly stated my dislike for the Israeli government and its countless  breaches of human rights, did you already forget, or are you trying to dismiss what I’ve said as some sort of defence of Israel?

Tbf I corrected myself and I would never conflate Jewish with Israel. That’s your thought process. I was talking about people like Rupert Murdoch who has a big say in what is transmitted and written around the world including the UK. He directly funds the building of illegal settlements. I already stated all was the wrong word. I don’t think theres a massive Jewish conspiracy. I understand Jewish people like all people hold different views and come from different backgrounds and environments which shapes those views. My two best friends are Jewish. I’ve worked for one of the most well known companies to have its formation by Jewish individuals and continues to have a large Jewish influence. My mentor who I greatly admire to this day was Jewish. I am anti Zionism in all its form. I don’t think it’s wrong to say that it has a disproportionate influence in media and governments given the size of Israel. The likes of AIPAC is one example. 

[omariqy]

 

[magnkarl]

15 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Tbf I corrected myself and I would never conflate Jewish with Israel. That’s your thought process. I was talking about people like Rupert Murdoch who has a big say in what is transmitted and written around the world including the UK. He directly funds the building of illegal settlements. I already stated all was the wrong word. I don’t think theres a massive Jewish conspiracy. I understand Jewish people like all people hold different views and come from different backgrounds and environments which shapes those views. My two best friends are Jewish. I’ve worked for one of the most well known companies to have its formation by Jewish individuals and continues to have a large Jewish influence. My mentor who I greatly admire to this day was Jewish. I am anti Zionism in all its form. I don’t think it’s wrong to say that it has a disproportionate influence in media and governments given the size of Israel. The likes of AIPAC is one example. 

It’s okay, I get your apology and frankly we’re all a bit on our toes here because we’ve fairly consistently got a bunch of hoodlums outside both our place of worship and schools saying horrible things because of our race. I probably knee jerk too quickly when I see things that might look like what I hear from said hoodlums.

I’m often equated with Israel only because I was born by a Jewish mother, which I find weird considering that it’s often the kind of people that would describe themselves as anti-racist who say such things.

I’m sick and tired of having to shield parents of a dead kid at a festival in Israel from people waving Hamas or Jihad flags just because they want to go to a service in their synagogue. It’s probably making me see shadows where they aren’t.

For my part, I’m also sorry for misunderstanding and being a clearing in the woods about it.

Edited November 14, 2023 by magnkarl

[omariqy]

4 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It’s okay, I get your apology and frankly we’re all a bit on our toes here because we’ve fairly consistently got a bunch of hoodlums outside both our place of worship and schools saying horrible things because of our race. I probably knee jerk too quickly when I see things that might look like what I hear from said hoodlums.

I’m often equated with Israel only because I was born by a Jewish mother, which I find weird considering that it’s often the kind of people that would describe themselves as anti-racist who say such things.

I’m sick and tired of having to shield parents of a dead kid at a festival in Israel from people waving Hamas or Jihad flags just because they want to go to a service in their synagogue. It’s probably making me see shadows where they aren’t.

For my part, I’m also sorry for misunderstanding and being a clearing in the woods about it.

Honestly I completely understand. I get what October 7th must feel like to Jewish people. How scared they must feel or even deflated. 

[omariqy]

 

[Genie]

4 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Anybody on here feeling the Israel response is still proportionate in any way? Or that they can ever permanently dismantle Hamas?

Support for the ethnic cleansing appears to be beginning to weaken now internationally as the lack of a plan becomes more obvious even to the most strident political supporter of the bombing to date.

 

It would never be proportionate. If you pull the tigers tail it won’t just pull your tail in return. 

[El Segundo]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

You could do with taking your own initial advice with regards to that last sentence not only that I suggest you read the good number of posts in this topic that he’s made where he does actually criticise Israel and it’s government quite extensively.

Practice what you preach. Oh and stop putting words in his mouth.

You could do with not trying to tell me what to do.  What words have I put in his mouth?  Examples? And what am I preaching that I need to practice?  Please explain.

[El Segundo]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Did I make stuff up?

Are all major publications in the UK linked to Israel? That was the statement you’re now defending.

A poster wrote "links to Israel".  You  turned it into "controlling all major publications in one of the largest countries in Europe"   

I'm defending his statement against accusations of AS simply because I think it isn't.  I'm not saying I agree with it, just don't think it's AS, nor is it saying Israel controls all major publications, as you have asserted.    

[meregreen]

1 hour ago, El Segundo said:

You could do with not trying to tell me what to do.  What words have I put in his mouth?  Examples? And what am I preaching that I need to practice?  Please explain.

He’s a moderator. He certainly can tell you what not to do……..on this site

[omariqy]

 

[omariqy]

 

[El Segundo]

41 minutes ago, meregreen said:

He’s a moderator. He certainly can tell you what not to do……..on this site

Only if I've broken the rules.  I haven't as far as I know.

Edited November 14, 2023 by El Segundo

[magnkarl]

9 hours ago, omariqy said:

 

Then again, if reports and American intel is true (and it obviously might not be) Hamas has its command centre right below Shifa, this is also likely to be where hostages are being held. The Israelis built this bunker themselves so saying that it’s not there won’t really work.

I might be wrong but Ukraine haven’t got military bases in hospitals, they don’t use civilians as human shields and have certainly not used hospitals to hold hostages taken in terrorist attacks. Apples and pears.

How do you think the British army would fight an enemy that has done and is doing what Hamas is doing? 

Amnesty seems to think that it was a base used for torture by Hamas in 2014, so I don't really see why Hamas would've withdrawn from it.

Quote

As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by magnkarl

[Mic09]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

How do you think the British army would fight an enemy that has done and is doing what Hamas is doing? 

Well, in the British case we would wait for the American command, and respond to the attack by invading a country by accusing it of holding weapons of mass destruction. We'd keep troops there for 10 years. 

[El Segundo]

12 hours ago, magnkarl said:

It’s okay, I get your apology and frankly we’re all a bit on our toes here because we’ve fairly consistently got a bunch of hoodlums outside both our place of worship and schools saying horrible things because of our race. I probably knee jerk too quickly when I see things that might look like what I hear from said hoodlums.

I’m often equated with Israel only because I was born by a Jewish mother, which I find weird considering that it’s often the kind of people that would describe themselves as anti-racist who say such things.

I’m sick and tired of having to shield parents of a dead kid at a festival in Israel from people waving Hamas or Jihad flags just because they want to go to a service in their synagogue. It’s probably making me see shadows where they aren’t.

For my part, I’m also sorry for misunderstanding and being a clearing in the woods about it.

It seems I may have picked you up on a response to a post that was edited before I read it.  If so, I also apologise for what I said - and for being a bit of a clearing in the woods about it.  

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Well, in the British case we would wait for the American command, and respond to the attack by invading a country by accusing it of holding weapons of mass destruction. We'd keep troops there for 10 years. 

I think you're right, but I think you forgot the part that so many people in the West are blatantly holding Israel to a higher standard on than themselves. Bombing. Schools, hospitals, civilian areas etc. To the few Israelis I know it all just seems a bit rich, that a) the West reacts when Israel bombs an opponent that massacred more people than pretty much all European terrorist attacks in the last 20 years combined, b) that the Arab world has the audacity to say that what Israel is doing is genocide, all the while being neutral, or better yet, selling arms to a Russian state willfully killing people on a much larger scale than Israel. The same Arab states calls what Israel is doing apartheid, when in example Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Iran, Turkey +++ treat minorities in their own countries much worse than Israel does to Arabs and Bedouin within Israel, Saudi Arabia alone keep around 750.000 Palestinians as modern day slaves.

My counter to them is always that there's a bit of whataboutery to it, but it does at least in some cases ring very true. I think they feel that the are called out on this because they are Jewish, that it takes a Jewish nation's war to bring 400 000 people into the street to protest, while the same protests against Russia's brutal attack on a neighbour possibly brings out 1000 people. I try to explain that we protest because we expect more from our allies, and remind them that a reported 1 million people protested against the invasion of Iraq in 2003 - but at the back of my mind I also see certain elements to said protest who use it as a shield to be exactly what my friends in Israel accuse them of. It's all in all a very tough discussion to have.