Israel, Palestine and Iran

[lapal_fan]

26 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Or alternatively give severe restrictions as to what they are used for (see Ukraine).

Not sending Israel aid would be Hezbollah\Iran\Syria and a diaspora of jihadist group's wet dream, it would mean the erasure of Israel and many million of instances of what we saw on Oct 7th.

Defensive capability will always be important in the only 'liberal' place in the ME, it's got by far the largest gay population in the ME and would likely be a target forever by the arab states around it.

Which is the threat to Israel if they don't stop killing innocent humans in their (not-so-accurate) quest to destroy Hamas. 

At the end of the day, Hamas are a result of years of awfulness.  The kids experiencing their people getting inordinately blown to pieces today, aren't going to grow up into model citizens.  They're humans with no family left, with nothing left and they will become the 2040 version of Hamas. 

If you look at Israel/Palestine from the outside.  Israel is the big brother (both landmass-wise, military-wise and structure-wise), kicking the shit out the little brother and moaning when the little brother gives you a bruise.

If anyone is to stop this entire conflict, it is going to be Israel, not Palestine. 

Then you can worry about being the only gays in the village.  

[sne]

Here's hoping Hamas treats the Israeli hostages better than Israel are (allegedly) treating the Palestinian workers.

Quote

Gaza workers expelled from Israel accuse Israeli authorities of abuse, including beatings

Palestinian workers who were expelled back to Gaza from Israel last week have accused Israeli authorities of “torture,” alleging they were stripped naked, held in cages, viciously beaten and, according to one worker’s account, subjected to electric shocks.

“They broke us and beat us with batons and metal sticks… they humiliated us… they have made us starve without food or water,” Muqbel Abdullah Al Radia, another of the workers, told CNN.Gisha, an Israeli not-for-profit organization focused on protecting the freedom of movement of Palestinians and one of the groups behind the petition, said in a statement last week that it had “reason to believe that the holding conditions in these facilities were extremely dire, and that detainees were subjected to extensive physical violence and psychological abuse, as well as being held in inhumane conditions.”

Another worker from Beit Lahiya, Mahmoud Abu Darabeh, also described beatings by what he says were Israeli forces.

Abu Darabeh said he was detained on the second day of the war. “They put us in cages like dogs, beatings, insults, they didn’t care whether people are ill or not, some of us were injured, their feet got rotten because they didn’t get any medical treatment,” he said.

The men faced daily interrogations from the Israeli authorities asking about their homes and family members, Abu Darabeh said.

“If you happen to have a relative that is a police officer of Hamas you get beaten. I know people whose rib cage was completely broken, some people died of torture,” he told CNN.

He also described how some of the workers died during detention and while crossing into Gaza.

“Some people died on the way here because they were beaten and subjected to electric shocks,” Abu Darabeh said. He said he personally witnessed others who were detained with him being shocked.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/06/middleeast/gaza-workers-allege-abuse/index.html

[magnkarl]

9 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Which is the threat to Israel if they don't stop killing innocent humans in their (not-so-accurate) quest to destroy Hamas. 

At the end of the day, Hamas are a result of years of awfulness.  The kids experiencing their people getting inordinately blown to pieces today, aren't going to grow up into model citizens.  They're humans with no family left, with nothing left and they will become the 2040 version of Hamas. 

If you look at Israel/Palestine from the outside.  Israel is the big brother (both landmass-wise, military-wise and structure-wise), kicking the shit out the little brother and moaning when the little brother gives you a bruise.

If anyone is to stop this entire conflict, it is going to be Israel, not Palestine. 

Then you can worry about being the only gays in the village.  

Ah, a terrorist attack planned and executed by Iran and the world's most well armed non-state actor Hezbollah and its little brother that killed 1400 mostly civilians is 'just a bruise'. And the gay population in Israel is to be mocked as the 'only gays in the village'.

Got it. Got any arguments that aren't inflammatory to prove that Iran and Israel's neighbours wouldn't attack Israel if it didn't have Western aid? I've got 6 wars, Iranian backed militia in Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and Yemen, Iranian and Syrian politicians constantly touting 'death to the Jews' to say otherwise.

You are arguing for a tit for tat that would lead to an even bigger war, isn't that what we're trying to avoid? This conflict was reignited by the Arab world 3 times, and on 7.10 by Hamas. That isn't to say that Israel hasn't been pushing Palestinians to the brink, but you seem to have a very simplistic view on the geo-politics in the Middle East.

What do you call 9/11, if this attack was just a bruise? A friendly slap on the back?

Edited November 7, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jon]

Sleaford Mods storm off stage

Sleaford Mods have stirred up a bit if controversy. For an overtly political band, they seemed to want no part of the Palestine/ Israel crisis. A Palestinian flag was thrown on stage, and they threw it back and stormed off. 

Then basically claimed ignorance in their defence. 

[lapal_fan]

13 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Ah, a terrorist attack planned and executed by Iran and the world's most well armed non-state actor Hezbollah and its little brother that killed 1400 mostly civilians is 'just a bruise'. And the gay population in Israel is to be mocked as the 'only gays in the village'.

Got it. Got any arguments that aren't inflammatory to prove that Iran and Israel's neighbours wouldn't attack Israel if it didn't have Western aid? I've got 6 wars, Iranian backed militia in Syria, Lebanon, Gaza and Yemen, Iranian and Syrian politicians constantly touting 'death to the Jews' to say otherwise.

You are arguing for a tit for tat that would lead to an even bigger war, isn't that what we're trying to avoid? This conflict was reignited by the Arab world 3 times, and on 7.10 by Hamas. That isn't to say that Israel hasn't been pushing Palestinians to the brink, but you seem to have a very simplistic view on the geo-politics in the Middle East.

What do you call 9/11, if this attack was just a bruise? A friendly slap on the back?

You're taking what I'm saying far too literally, but I suspect you know that.  And the gays thing is from a TV show from 20 years ago. 

No innocent people should die as a result of politics, not one - but here we are.

For every attack on Israel or innocent Jews in the Middle East, there are attacks on innocent Palestinians.

You'll have seen this before, but the landmass changes from 70 years ago to today are simply not "fair" (or whatever adjective you can apply);

Animated map of Israel taking over historic Palestine - Palestine Remix (aljazeera.com)

If what I have posted isn't 100% factually true, then please educate me, I'm willing to learn. 

I can't afford to give a shit what Iran and the Arab nations backing Hamas are doing, they are not the problem I am addressing. 

At the end of the day, sensible politicians and a mega-calming of each populous, before getting around a table and having a sensible discussion is the way forward.  But when neither side are willing to do that, the circle-jerk of death and misery for both populations will continue.

I'm just dandy sat near Birmingham, I don't have any interest in the problem, it doesn't affect me, apart from the sadness I feel when I see/hear what is going on in the region.  

But as with every war ever, it's the few at the top who benefit, whilst the citizens suffer unimaginable horror and frankly, that's where the citizens should be directing their anger towards - on both sides. 

[magnkarl]

56 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

You're taking what I'm saying far too literally, but I suspect you know that.

As someone who knows the family of one of the victims of the 7.10 terrorism, who they still haven't been able to locate the body of because they're sitting with over 200 people who are so badly burnt and mangled that they can't extract DNA, I assure you that anyone downplaying what Hamas has done as what you've perscribed it 'a small bruise' is insanely dumb. It downplays jihadic islamic terrorism brought on by a priesthood of backwards Ayatollahs in a country where they stone women, gay people and students.

56 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

You'll have seen this before, but the landmass changes from 70 years ago to today are simply not "fair" (or whatever adjective you can apply);

Animated map of Israel taking over historic Palestine - Palestine Remix (aljazeera.com)

So since you've posted a link from Al Jazeera (Arab - extremely skewed) claiming there is a 'Historic Palestine'. Can you tell me what Historic Palestine is?

Much, and I'm not saying all because Israeli settlers clearly are overboard many times, of the land taken by Israelis were in connections with wars that they didn't start themselves. I.e the Golan Heights or parts of Southern Gaza were taken due to Israel winning wars not started by Israel. Did Britain not take land areas when fighting back other nations who attack them (I.e. Germany)? The West Bank was in example largely evacuated by Jews in 1948 when Jordan attacked the newly formed Israel and settled the area with Arabs. It's very simplistic to say that the West Bank is all Arab when in reality it wasn't before 1948, in what people call 'modern times'.

56 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

I can't afford to give a shit what Iran and the Arab nations backing Hamas are doing, they are not the problem I am addressing. 

So you can't afford to care about the countries that are spurring this conflict on out of purely their own interests? Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of a deal that would create peace, Iran, Syria and Hezbollah have used Palestine as a sacrificial lamb to stop that from happening. You seem very keen to paint this conflict as a one sided thing, but it really isn't, and willfully ignoring one side is going to prolong the conflict as sympathies lie largely with the Palestinian cause in the West.

Does this:

56 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

At the end of the day, sensible politicians and a mega-calming of each populous, before getting around a table and having a sensible discussion is the way forward.  But when neither side are willing to do that, the circle-jerk of death and misery for both populations will continue.

Match with this?

1 hour ago, lapal_fan said:

kicking the shit out the little brother and moaning when the little brother gives you a bruise.

Then you can worry about being the only gays in the village.  

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

I think we have to be very wary of the maps and gif maps that show Israeli land grab. I think its a bit more complicated than that.

No sick pun intended but its an absolute minefield not just repeating the propaganda of either side here.

It’s also absolutely true that you can dial up any number of videos of settlers stealing land and stealing houses and wrecking olive groves whilst fascists in uniform stand by to make sure the resistance of old ladies is minimal.

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think we have to be very wary of the maps and gif maps that show Israeli land grab. I think its a bit more complicated than that.

No sick pun intended but its an absolute minefield not just repeating the propaganda of either side here.

It’s also absolutely true that you can dial up any number of videos of settlers stealing land and stealing houses and wrecking olive groves whilst fascists in uniform stand by to make sure the resistance of old ladies is minimal.

Agreed, there's absolutely better sources than both IDF\Likud and Al Jazeera or Press TV.

[Jareth]

Israel say they are going to indefinitely control Gaza. Gonna tie them up a bit no?

[Mic09]

39 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Israel say they are going to indefinitely control Gaza. Gonna tie them up a bit no?

I wonder, if they control it over the next few years, will new Israeli settlements be built in Gaza?

Who would want to work or live there? 

And even if it's just the military and Palestinians are encouraged to come back to their homes, it's an occupation - and that won't be too joyful for anyone.

What a shit show the whole thing is. 

[magnkarl]

That 'politician' from Hamas earlier in this thread seems to be lying so hard he probably believes himself.

Apparently they were promised stipends for killing and kidnapping Jews. Who gave Hamas the funds? 

An apartment and 10.000 dollars for kidnapping one Jew.

Edited November 7, 2023 by magnkarl

[NurembergVillan]

3 hours ago, magnkarl said:

That 'politician' from Hamas earlier in this thread seems to be lying so hard he probably believes himself.

Apparently they were promised stipends for killing and kidnapping Jews. Who gave Hamas the funds? 

An apartment and 10.000 dollars for kidnapping one Jew.

At least they're honest.

Rather that than hiding behind a guise of self-defence, demanding half a population decamp to one area of a country in order to be "safer" and then launch airstrikes on them like sitting ducks.

That reeks of vengeance rather than self-defence.

Personally, I'd prefer neither but here we are...

 

[chrisp65]

There was some IDF / Israel government spokesbod on the radio at lunchtime and he had two points to make. He wanted us all to know, it was important we were told, that Hamas were executing people attempting to leave Gaza. He then went on to say that they’ve given the civilians 4 hours to leave so now anyone left in there can be treated as a combatant.

Whether he was thick, sick, or both I couldn’t tell you.

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

There was some IDF / Israel government spokesbod on the radio at lunchtime and he had two points to make. He wanted us all to know, it was important we were told, that Hamas were executing people attempting to leave Gaza. He then went on to say that they’ve given the civilians 4 hours to leave so now anyone left in there can be treated as a combatant.

Whether he was thick, sick, or both I couldn’t tell you.

Is this the same four hours they gave them weeks ago?

[lapal_fan]

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

As someone who knows the family of one of the victims of the 7.10 terrorism, who they still haven't been able to locate the body of because they're sitting with over 200 people who are so badly burnt and mangled that they can't extract DNA, I assure you that anyone downplaying what Hamas has done as what you've perscribed it 'a small bruise' is insanely dumb. It downplays jihadic islamic terrorism brought on by a priesthood of backwards Ayatollahs in a country where they stone women, gay people and students.

To be honest, you're talking to someone who was taking the piss out of a friend who's got an suspected brain tumour, and is/was getting the results today - I make stupid jokes/analogies all the time to serious matters.  I am but one, useless dumbass who has an opinion on a football forum.  Let me just reiterate that.  A FOOTBALL FORUM.   That's not me weaselling out of the seriousness of the situation, but what the **** can I do about it, if world leaders can't seem to find a solution  

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

So since you've posted a link from Al Jazeera (Arab - extremely skewed) claiming there is a 'Historic Palestine'. Can you tell me what Historic Palestine is?

Much, and I'm not saying all because Israeli settlers clearly are overboard many times, of the land taken by Israelis were in connections with wars that they didn't start themselves. I.e the Golan Heights or parts of Southern Gaza were taken due to Israel winning wars not started by Israel. Did Britain not take land areas when fighting back other nations who attack them (I.e. Germany)? The West Bank was in example largely evacuated by Jews in 1948 when Jordan attacked the newly formed Israel and settled the area with Arabs. It's very simplistic to say that the West Bank is all Arab when in reality it wasn't before 1948, in what people call 'modern times'.

This is an interesting point.  For all of the stuff I've read about in the past, its a bit like pre-premier league history, it doesn't exist (Or pre WW2 history, in this case).  I will have a deeper look at this.  

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

So you can't afford to care about the countries that are spurring this conflict on out of purely their own interests? Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the verge of a deal that would create peace, Iran, Syria and Hezbollah have used Palestine as a sacrificial lamb to stop that from happening. You seem very keen to paint this conflict as a one sided thing, but it really isn't, and willfully ignoring one side is going to prolong the conflict as sympathies lie largely with the Palestinian cause in the West.

I'm not keen to put blame on anyone, or anything.  But I'm calling it when one nation is out-smarted and out-muscled. 

My question to you is, after labelling Hamas a terrorist group (which they are), but you seem not to acknowledge the reasons for them existing in the first place, which is historic violence/murder of their families and their peoples?  

If I shot your parents in front of you as an 8 year old - if you could, wouldn't you want your revenge? You may not, but a lot of people would (and religion doesn't really help here).  If everyone was showering each other with flowers instead of bombs, would there be any need for Hamas?  Would they exist?  I'd wager not.  

The whole "There is always an opposing force at play" seems appropriate here.  

The bottom part of your post is comparing what my ideal world would be like, as opposed to what seems to be actually happening.  Surely you can't tell me there isn't a power imbalance here? 

[Thug]

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Israelis were in connections with wars that they didn't start themselves

Didn’t Israel ‘strike first’ in 1968? And then try to lie about it?

 

[meregreen]

5 minutes ago, Thug said:

Didn’t Israel ‘strike first’ in 1968? And then try to lie about it?

 

No.

[Thug]

2 minutes ago, meregreen said:

No.

Oh really? I suppose the didn’t attack the Liberty and blame the Arabs either.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Thug

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

you seem not to acknowledge the reasons for them existing in the first place, which is historic violence/murder of their families and their peoples?  

The thing is, and I'm not dismissing your point or anything, it's one thing for some kind of "resistance" to spring up out of oppression and all the rest of it [abbreviated for space], but it's another thing entirely for the behaviour of that "resistance" to morph into cold blooded murder of children and old people, innocents one and all because they are [Jews]. It's not any kind of justification at all, and as @bickster pointed out before, it's completely counter-productive - just as Israel's horrific bombardment of the West Bank (and countless other "punishments") have been.

However it started (Hamas, I mean) , what it is now, is not a resistance movement against occupation and oppression, it's a murderous group with zero respect for the lives of Palestinians or Israelis.

I'm fairly confident that what they did was intended to provoke the kind of regrettable reaction it got from Israel's own whoppers of a government. They were set up with the objective (however fanciful) of the elimination of Israel and Israelis. Less a resistance, more a kind of Isis like death cult.

I hope your friend has good news on the health front.

 

[Thug]

5 minutes ago, meregreen said:

No.

At the commencement of hostilities, both Egypt and Israel announced that they had been attacked by the other country.^[83] The Israeli government later abandoned its initial position, acknowledging Israel had struck first, claiming that it was a preemptive strike in the face of a planned invasion by Egypt.^[83][33]On the other hand, the Arab view was that it was unjustified to attack Egypt.^[164][165] Many commentators consider the war as the classic case of anticipatory attack in self-defense.^[166][167]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War