Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[VILLAMARV]

51 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Whataboutism just makes it look like you’re trying to excuse or justify it. Are you?

It's context to me D43, On a page where there's a couple of posts about killing kids tipping the scales of justice in people's minds towards support of one side or the other, it's probably worth remembering both sides have killed, both sides have tortured and so on.

[LondonLax]

7 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Well, no.

But it also (likely) isn't true.

They did enter homes and kill children though, that part is true. The method of killing seems to be contested. 

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, LondonLax said:

They did enter homes and kill children though, that part is true. The method of killing seems to be contested. 

And then is it whataboutism to say that Israel have easily killed more children in Gaza? Either through bombing or starving.

Method of killing doesn't matter right?

[sne]

20 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

Then why is your first reaction to say "well Israel did x"?

Is there any justification in your mind for someone to enter someones home and behead their children?

Wasn't really my first reaction was it

[LondonLax]

3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

And then is it whataboutism to say that Israel have easily killed more children in Gaza? Either through bombing or starving.

Method of killing doesn't matter right?

I think intent does matter. In that an intent to kill is not the equivalent to collateral damage, from a philosophical point of view, even if it is a tragedy either way from a practical perspective. A bit like the distinction between murder and manslaughter that our legal system makes. 

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, LondonLax said:

I think intent does matter. In that an intent to kill is not the equivalent to collateral damage, from a philosophical point of view, even if it is a tragedy either way from a practical perspective. A bit like the distinction between murder and manslaughter that our legal system makes. 

Hmmmmm I'm not sure.

Years and years of child killing by Israel with less 'intent' is somehow not as bad as active killing of Israeli kids?

Both are abhorrent, equally so.

[Rustibrooks]

51 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I think I read they're the most well-armed army in the world. They could wipe Gaza off the face of the planet from a distance easily.

It’s sad because people won’t bother checking the facts now despite the IDF saying it’s not true. I saw a clip of them speaking about it on Sky and they said it’s the reason they haven’t reported it. I think someone then went on to say there’s 'no evidence but doesn’t mean it didn’t happen'. Which I guess you can pretty much claim for anything going on right minus the attack in Israel and the shelling in Gaza.

[magnkarl]

7 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

It’s sad because people won’t bother checking the facts now despite the IDF saying it’s not true. I saw a clip of them speaking about it on Sky and they said it’s the reason they haven’t reported it. I think someone then went on to say there’s 'no evidence but doesn’t mean it didn’t happen'. Which I guess you can pretty much claim for anything going on right minus the attack in Israel and the shelling in Gaza.

Where did IDF say it's not true?

You're basing the 'not true' on someone in Turkey apparently receiving word from IDF, which I somehow find weird considering they have no source and the channel making the claims seems to be full of Turkish pro-Erdogan propaganda.

Here's the video of the soldier making the claims, make of it what you will, but don't take indirect twitter sources with very dubious credentials as any sort of truth.

Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Hamas claims to be the legitimate government of the Gaza Strip. 

If my country was almost completely reliant on a neighbour for electricity, water and food and their military was bigger and better armed - I don't think I'd invade and murder its civilians. 

There is blame on both sides.  But the latest crisis was caused by Hamas.  They gained very little and will lose 200 times more in the coming days. 

Whether you agree with the Palestine people and their suffering is irrelevant. Their government is 100% to blame for the upcoming death of thousands of its own people.  

It's no different to the deaths of thousands of innocent Germans in WW2.  Hitler ruined Germany - not the allies. 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Mandy Lifeboats
Added details

[Jareth]

13 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I think intent does matter. In that an intent to kill is not the equivalent to collateral damage, from a philosophical point of view, even if it is a tragedy either way from a practical perspective. A bit like the distinction between murder and manslaughter that our legal system makes. 

From the UN - 96% of deaths since 2005 in the conflict have been Palestinian. There's the tragedy. 

[bannedfromHandV]

7 hours ago, maqroll said:

Who knows what is real anymore. Twitter is flooded with propaganda and disinformation and mainstream news isn't much better. 

It's painful watching these CNN anchors convey their commiserations to their interview subjects before a stylized backdrop and custom theme music.

Almost as bad as the Israeli relatives of those taken hostage pouring their hearts out to TV cameras against the backdrop of advertisements for the Carlton Hotel in Tel Aviv on Monday - utterly tasteless even if unintentional.

[Rustibrooks]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Where did IDF say it's not true?

You're basing the 'not true' on someone in Turkey apparently receiving word from IDF, which I somehow find weird considering they have no source and the channel making the claims seems to be full of Turkish pro-Erdogan propaganda.

Here's the video of the soldier making the claims, make of it what you will, but don't take indirect twitter sources with very dubious credentials as any sort of truth.

I’m not necessarily taking it as total truth but I know there’s a lot of propaganda going on right now and misinformation from all sides, so naturally I’m approaching the news with an open mind and trying to not let things sway me. Even with the clip you’ve linked, while it sounds shocking there’s also every right that the same channel could be peddling a bit of propaganda themselves.

[villa89]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Hamas claims to be the legitimate government of the Gaza Strip. 

If my country was almost completely reliant on a neighbour for electricity, water and food and their military was bigger and better armed - I don't think I'd invade and murder its civilians. 

There is blame on both sides.  But the latest crisis was caused by Hamas.  They gained very little and will lose 200 times more in the coming days. 

Whether you agree with the Palestine people and their suffering is irrelevant. Their government is 100% to blame for the upcoming death of thousands of its own people.  

It's the cornered animal analogy, decades of mistreatment, 2 million people packed into a place without basic services and at some point they will try to fight back whether it benefits them or not. 

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

I’m not necessarily taking it as total truth but I know there’s a lot of propaganda going on right now and misinformation from all sides, so naturally I’m approaching the news with an open mind and trying to not let things sway me. Even with the clip you’ve linked, while it sounds shocking there’s also every right that the same channel could be peddling a bit of propaganda themselves.

Yes, but your claim is that 'thank god it wasn't true' based solely on someone quoting a state-operated Turkish news agency that apparently had it confirmed that it didn't happen, rather than a soldier on the ground visibly shaking, speaking bad English maybe not putting his words right.

You're jumping to conclusions about the fact that it didn't happen, and you chose to not listen to the first source on this. And I didn't say that I think you should take what the soldier says as truth, I said make of it as you will.

What I think is that the soldier has seen a lot of horrible things. He's saying that there's bodies, dismembered and bloody. That there's children and babies too. That isn't untrue if you look at the videos from the place.

Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl

[LondonLax]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

From the UN - 96% of deaths since 2005 in the conflict have been Palestinian. There's the tragedy. 

Surely the tragedy is the 100%? The 4% also matter to their friends and families. 

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, Jareth said:

From the UN - 96% of deaths since 2005 in the conflict have been Palestinian. There's the tragedy. 

Ah, good old Stop the War analogy.

Only 96% matter, the rest are vindicated by our friends in Hamas!

Edited October 11, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

Just now, LondonLax said:

Surely the tragedy is the 100%? The 4% also matter to their friends and families. 

Of course - but 96% Vs 4% tells a story of an incredibly one sided conflict. That’s why there is sympathy out there for Palestinians and why folks aren’t treating the recent atrocities as something new and shocking - just shocking. Kids have been blown up for years over there. 

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

Ah, good old Stop the War analogy.

Only 96% matter, the rest are vindicated by our friends in Hamas!

You can’t use that attack - nobody on here is supporting Hamas and you know it. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Just now, villa89 said:

It's the cornered animal analogy, decades of mistreatment, 2 million people packed into a place without basic services and at some point they will try to fight back whether it benefits them or not. 

I agree.  But it was a particularly stupid way of fighting back.  

If the UK had invaded Germany in 1940 we'd all be saying that it was a stupid idea and no surprise that it failed and caused the UK horrendous loses. 

I can appreciate the plight of the Palestinian people. That doesn't mean I have to disagree with the upcoming slaughter of Hamas.  

 

 

 

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

You can’t use that attack - nobody on here is supporting Hamas and you know it. 

That's not what I said, I said that the analogy of claiming that a child dead on one side is worth more to some groupings, in this case the blinkered Stop the War Campaign, is a stupid way of saying things.