Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[peterw]

4 hours ago, omariqy said:

My point was tongue in cheek. I’m fully aware of the history of colonisation. They didn’t replace the indigenous population. They converted them to their religion. Whether you agree with the methods or not.

You mention democracy like the UK the US or Israel is truly democratic. Like hell it is. Individual liberty? In Israel? For who? Rule of law? In Israel? For who? Honestly. The UK imo is probably the closest to having all those things and even then we are way off. Also who decided what Eutopia looks like? Just because in our eyes neo-liberalism is the holy grail, does it mean everyone else in the world must follow that? I think we put ourselves on a pedestal and these perceived share values when the reality is quite different. 

Not perfect by any means, but the alternative is authoritarianism being offered by the Likes of China, Russia or limited democracy offered by the likes of Iran. There is a new world stand off between the two systems of rule and you can't criticise liberal democracy (not you personally) unless you critique its opposite. Fukuyama said in 1989 or 1990 that history was dead meaning that liberal democracies had won the argument in the wake of the end of Communism. However, the US being the hegemon post 1990 has given rise to Putin (not so much China who are ploughing their own path) as another means to recreate the 'glory days' whilst doing more long term damage.

[ender4]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Probably they did expect a different response, yes. One not so grotesque.

Hamas had around 15-20,000 full time and another 30,000 part time personnel before this started. If 20,000 have been killed, they’re nowhere near eradicated. I’ve an inkling that Israel has rather given them a bit of a recruiting opportunity by their actions. And within Israel the failure to get hostages freed is a major factor of discontent. Yes they’re more supportive of the actions against Hezbollah, despite that being almost an accident in terms of timing.

I wonder what has happened to the 95 remaining hostages? Is everyone assuming they are now dead, or is the general assumption that they are still being hidden in tunnels somewhere under Gaza? Why has the Israeli army not found them yet if they are alive?

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, ender4 said:

I wonder what has happened to the 95 remaining hostages? Is everyone assuming they are now dead, or is the general assumption that they are still being hidden in tunnels somewhere under Gaza? Why has the Israeli army not found them yet if they are alive?

It is thought the Gaza tunnels are longer than the London Underground 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

It is thought the Gaza tunnels are longer than the London Underground 

Makes you wonder if we’d all be a lot happier across the globe right now if they’d got Hamas on the HS2 job.

 

[ender4]

5 hours ago, bickster said:

It is thought the Gaza tunnels are longer than the London Underground 

But surely an army can search the whole London Underground in a few weeks?  The Israeli army has had at least a few months now, obviously in much more difficult and dangerous conditions. But still, are they not methodically going through each tunnel one by one? Or is it that they don’t know where all these tunnels are and are still looking for tunnel entrances?

[Awol]

@blandy seems the removal of Hezbollah from the scene in Lebanon went from speculation on the last page, to Israeli policy on this one (they might be watching us). 

 

[chips'ngravy]

So reading between the lines of Netanyahu's rhetoric, Lebanese citizens are being urged to take on Hezbollah whilst Israeli bombs are raining down on them? Seems like a big ask to me

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, chips'ngravy said:

So reading between the lines of Netanyahu's rhetoric, Lebanese citizens are being urged to take on Hezbollah whilst Israeli bombs are raining down on them? Seems like a big ask to me

Many in Lebanon despise Hezbollah and all they stand for. I just wish they’d do it themselves so Iran can’t use Israel as an excuse for why it’s happening.

I keep repeating myself here, but the older folks in the thread will remember how horrible PLO and Arabian backed militias ruined Lebanon in the civil war, the death toll was bigger than in Gaza.

[Jareth]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I keep repeating myself here, but the older folks in the thread will remember how horrible PLO and Arabian backed militias ruined Lebanon in the civil war, the death toll was bigger than in Gaza.

Are those stats or memories? Choose your conflict at the link below - nothing particularly close. I suppose if you add them all up over a century.... Have you got one of these tables for Lebanese deaths?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

Found it - 150k over 15 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:20 by Jareth

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

Are those stats or memories? Choose your conflict at the link below - nothing particularly close. I suppose if you add them all up over a century.... Have you got one of these tables for Lebanese deaths?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war

Found it - 150k over 15 years

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

 

I know it's counter to who you perceive as the victim, but just in this war without even including what Iranian backed Palestinian militias did in Jordan and Syria that is more deaths than in Gaza. What Fatah, PLO and Hezbollah have done to the Maronites and Druze in Lebanon amounts to nothing short of ethnic cleansing.

I think it's time to realise that being 'Pro-Palestinian' comes with an awful lot of horrendous baggage, just as being Pro-Israeli comes with the baggage of Gaza, occupation and horrible policies in the West Bank.

What I find mildly infuriating is this constant 'poor Palestinians' line being thrown around when they've essentially taken a large part in ruining Lebanon, Syria, caused civili war in Jordan, butchered Sunnis by the hundreds of thousands in Syria and participated in Hezbollahs cleansing of South Lebanon. It might just be the age of the average pro-Palestine supporter that makes them immune to the history of the group they're supporting. You may say that the 70's and 80's are a long time ago, but Hezbollah and PIJ have been propping and taking part in Assad's viscous murder campaigns since the start.

Edited Wednesday at 09:24 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

44 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I know it's counter to who you perceive as the victim, but just in this war without even including what Iranian backed Palestinian militias did in Jordan and Syria that is more deaths than in Gaza. What Fatah, PLO and Hezbollah have done to the Maronites and Druze in Lebanon amounts to nothing short of ethnic cleansing.

I think it's time to realise that being 'Pro-Palestinian' comes with an awful lot of horrendous baggage, just as being Pro-Israeli comes with the baggage of Gaza, occupation and horrible policies in the West Bank.

What I find mildly infuriating is this constant 'poor Palestinians' line being thrown around when they've essentially taken a large part in ruining Lebanon, Syria, caused civili war in Jordan, butchered Sunnis by the hundreds of thousands in Syria and participated in Hezbollahs cleansing of South Lebanon. It might just be the age of the average pro-Palestine supporter that makes them immune to the history of the group they're supporting. You may say that the 70's and 80's are a long time ago, but Hezbollah and PIJ have been propping and taking part in Assad's viscous murder campaigns since the start.

I'm not understanding your point - the numbers for the Lebanese civil war tell a different story no?  And if you're going on casualties from a massive dust up between multiple fronts and factions over a period as long as 15 years, well I don't get the comparison there either.

If the idea is that you can say look at this past conflict, the numbers were much worse - so stop getting all your knickers in a twist about Israeli genocide, well the numbers do not appear to be worse (please supply your own). If you are saying, as I 'think', you are saying, that sympathy for Palestinian civillians is misplaced, well the world disagrees with you on that one badly, how is it the fault of world record breaking numbers of eviscerated children? Sometimes feels like good people can rationalise anything if they have/need to. 

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

I'm not understanding your point - the numbers for the Lebanese civil war tell a different story no?  And if you're going on casualties from a massive dust up between multiple fronts and factions over a period as long as 15 years, well I don't get the comparison there either.

If the idea is that you can say look at this past conflict, the numbers were much worse - so stop getting all your knickers in a twist about Israeli genocide, well the numbers do not appear to be worse (please supply your own). If you are saying, as I 'think', you are saying, that sympathy for Palestinian civillians is misplaced, well the world disagrees with you on that one badly, how is it the fault of world record breaking numbers of eviscerated children? Sometimes feels like good people can rationalise anything if they have/need to. 

The numbers in the Lebanese civil war are larger than in Gaza, yet here you downplay them. I didn't say that they happened as fast. The point went totally over your head.

How's the couple of hundred thousand civilian casualties in Syria committed by Hezbollah and other Palestinian militias on Assad's team compared to Israel's 'world record breaking numbers' as you call it?

Sometimes feel like people can rationalise anything if they have to, indeed. A bit like the assinine second generation Lebanese and Syrians in Austrailia and London who mourned Nasrallah even though he's a massive contributor to why they're in Australia and the UK to begin with, on account of his viscous persecution of Sunnis, Christians, Jews and Druze in Lebanon and Syria.

If you think what is happening in Gaza is world record breaking numbers, then your perception of both the current reality in for example Sudan and Syria, as well as historically like in for example Hamburg (45000 in a couple of days) or Dresden (25000 in a day) -  is totally off. But I presume that it is your singular focus on Palestine which makes it so, and the 'side' of it all makes you blind to the suffering committed by the people you cheer for.

For me, the Palestinian people are being mistreated - but they are in absolutely no way helping to achieve peace, as we've seen in Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Syria. They're a massive part of the issue, and a massive part of the population is pro eradicating Jews, including the PA who pay salaries to families of 'martyrs' who have killed Jews. More Jews killed, more money. I do wonder why a year long Pro-Palestinian camp still can't get to criticising their side's part in all this, both sides are just echo-chambers full of eegits at this point - no one is willing to even study the history of both sides because it would counter their own made up arguments.

Edited Wednesday at 11:41 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

17 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The numbers in the Lebanese civil war are larger than in Gaza, yet here you downplay them. I didn't say that they happened as fast. The point went totally over your head.

How's the couple of hundred thousand civilian casualties in Syria committed by Hezbollah and other Palestinian militias on Assad's team compared to Israel's 'world record breaking numbers' as you call it?

Sometimes feel like people can rationalise anything if they have to, indeed. A bit like the assinine second generation Lebanese and Syrians in Austrailia and London who mourned Nasrallah even though he's a massive contributor to why they're in Australia and the UK to begin with, on account of his viscous persecution of Sunnis, Christians, Jews and Druze in Lebanon and Syria.

If you think what is happening in Gaza is world record breaking numbers, then your perception of both the current reality in for example Sudan and Syria, as well as historically like in for example Hamburg (45000 in a couple of days) or Dresden (25000 in a day) -  is totally off. But I presume that it is your singular focus on Palestine which makes it so, and the 'side' of it all makes you blind to the suffering committed by the people you cheer for.

For me, the Palestinian people are being mistreated - but they are in absolutely no way helping to achieve peace, as we've seen in Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Syria. They're a massive part of the issue, and a massive part of the population is pro eradicating Jews, including the PA who pay salaries to families of 'martyrs' who have killed Jews. More Jews killed, more money. I do wonder why a year long Pro-Palestinian camp still can't get to criticising their side's part in all this, both sides are just echo-chambers full of eegits.

If you're comparing numbers then it is logical to compare time periods too - we're one year in from Gaza, now onto Lebanon and by conservative figures 40k killed. This goes on 15 years, that's 600k. Your original comparative number of the Lebanese civil war, was 150k. Thus a previous conflict like that bears no comparison to this conflict - you had previously stated it was some how worse. 

Two other things to split out.

The idea that the Palestinians deserve it. This is victim blaming. You can't do that, without extending blame to Oct 7th victims for example. Not something I would do, but operate the double standard why don't you, make it rational for whatever reason. 

Protest of Israeli genocide is the hobby of historically naive eegits. 67% of the UK think Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza since Oct 7th. (https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48907-war-crimes-in-gaza-most-britons-think-both-sides-are-likely-guilty) 

 

[magnkarl]

5 hours ago, Jareth said:

If you're comparing numbers then it is logical to compare time periods too - we're one year in from Gaza, now onto Lebanon and by conservative figures 40k killed. This goes on 15 years, that's 600k. Your original comparative number of the Lebanese civil war, was 150k. Thus a previous conflict like that bears no comparison to this conflict - you had previously stated it was some how worse. 

Two other things to split out.

The idea that the Palestinians deserve it. This is victim blaming. You can't do that, without extending blame to Oct 7th victims for example. Not something I would do, but operate the double standard why don't you, make it rational for whatever reason. 

Protest of Israeli genocide is the hobby of historically naive eegits. 67% of the UK think Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza since Oct 7th. (https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/48907-war-crimes-in-gaza-most-britons-think-both-sides-are-likely-guilty) 

 

You seem to just read part of what I’m writing.

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

both sides are just echo-chambers full of eegits at this point - no one is willing to even study the history of both sides because it would counter their own made up arguments.

Again, the reflex of defending Palestinians at every turn even if they’ve ruined and attacked everything around them is getting tiresome. I’m not pro Israeli, I’ve criticised Israel as much as Palestine in this thread, as I am tired with the average Zionist I’m getting increasingly tired of your one sided Pro-Palestinian alternate reality history. Where have I said they deserve it? I’ve said they’re not contributing one ounce to peace, and that people are cheering them on for it by using some sort of continuous victim mentality. 

I thought the argument was that time didn’t start on October 7th, yet here you are implicitly saying that what Palestinians did in Syria is old news. Jikes.

Edited Wednesday at 17:20 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

14 hours ago, magnkarl said:

You seem to just read part of what I’m writing.

Again, the reflex of defending Palestinians at every turn even if they’ve ruined and attacked everything around them is getting tiresome. I’m not pro Israeli, I’ve criticised Israel as much as Palestine in this thread, as I am tired with the average Zionist I’m getting increasingly tired of your one sided Pro-Palestinian alternate reality history. Where have I said they deserve it? I’ve said they’re not contributing one ounce to peace, and that people are cheering them on for it by using some sort of continuous victim mentality. 

I thought the argument was that time didn’t start on October 7th, yet here you are implicitly saying that what Palestinians did in Syria is old news. Jikes.

I can tell you what I'm doing, and that is not referring to the past at every opportunity. For every crime of the Palestinians there is a counter argument of a crime by Israelis. It becomes a history battle and goes absolutely nowhere. I'm more interested in the here and now and the recognition of what is happening - going wide and long with comparisons to previous 'worse?' conflicts is in my eyes an intentional tactic to water down the present. If that's not what you're doing, then fair enough. 

[magnkarl]

6 hours ago, Jareth said:

I can tell you what I'm doing, and that is not referring to the past at every opportunity. For every crime of the Palestinians there is a counter argument of a crime by Israelis. It becomes a history battle and goes absolutely nowhere. I'm more interested in the here and now and the recognition of what is happening - going wide and long with comparisons to previous 'worse?' conflicts is in my eyes an intentional tactic to water down the present. If that's not what you're doing, then fair enough. 

The here and now as you put it has Hezbollah, Houthis and other IRG militias hurling more tonnage of rockets a day at Israel than Israel is hurling at Gaza. Yet here we are only discussing Israel because it's uncomfortable to admit that both sides are absolutely as grim as the other and that no side in this conflict is actually pursuing peace. The only difference is that Israel defends its citizens rather than using them as cannon fodder.

You're part of the side that can stop the Palestinians from acting in the way that propels this conflict forward, and our government and the US is part of the side that can stop Israel from doing the same. Right now the popular hysteria for Palestinians that I'll go out on a limb and say you're a part of is showing Iran that sacrificing Palestinians pays off. They can commit vile terrorism on Israel, and god forbid if Israel responds there's millions of people protesting, be it against targeted walkie talkie attacks or indiscriminate bombing. They'll even go so far as praising Hezbollah, because they're anti-Israel. 

If someone actually demanded that the PA and other Palestinian groups behaved for the literal ¤#%tonne of aid they're given a year then I'm sure the average Palestinian would have a better life. Abbas is essentially a dictator at this point with the blessing of millions in the West.

We shouldn't be supporting Likud, in the same way that we shouldn't be supporting Hamas\PIJ\PA and your dime a dozen corrupt martyr-worshiping gaggle, yet only one side is receiving wide scale criticism, and it ain't the Palestinians.

The local synagogue in Southampton tried to hold a peaceful vigil for one of the girls that was raped and killed by Hamas at the Nova festival on Oct 7th the other day, guess what happened? 'Protesters' found it morally right to walk around outside the synagogue banging drums and praising Hamas\Hezbollah for the entire time the vigil was held. People are ill in the head, and from what I've seen the Pro-Palestinian side has some despicable people in it brainwashed by Lowkey, Chris Williamson and Jeremy Corbyn.

Edited Thursday at 14:04 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

20 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Right now the popular hysteria for Palestinians that I'll go out on a limb and say you're a part of is showing Iran that sacrificing Palestinians pays off.

67% of the UK are not in hysterics for Palestinians, they just think Israel is committing war crimes, daily. And they are.  We talk about Israel more, because Israel has gone too far. The IDF are now taking pot shots at the UNIFIL outposts, nearly killing two peacekeepers by firing at their tower. Are we going to rationalise that by saying the UN shouldn't be there etc etc? 

 

[magnkarl]

20 minutes ago, Jareth said:

67% of the UK are not in hysterics for Palestinians, they just think Israel is committing war crimes, daily. And they are.  We talk about Israel more, because Israel has gone too far. The IDF are now taking pot shots at the UNIFIL outposts, nearly killing two peacekeepers by firing at their tower. Are we going to rationalise that by saying the UN shouldn't be there etc etc? 

 

Just in the same way that you're rationalising everyone firing at Israel, I guess. 

As I've stated umpteen times, I don't support the IDF or Israel, yet you keep having a hard time saying that you don't support what the other side is repeatedly doing to Israel, hence, you're part of the problem which emboldens Iran and it's gaggle of proxies to keep going after Israel. It's all the 'resistance', y'know.

Accountability only one way, preferably while Israel fights with both arms behind its back while 'the resistance' keeps right on keeping on. Never mind wrecking the region, throwing opposition and homosexuals of the roof. Poor Palestinians, Israel should just allow the terrorists to do it, really.

Edited Thursday at 14:44 by magnkarl

[Chindie]

Israelis attacking UN personal again. 

They are so unlucky with how often the UN gets in the way of their munitions.

[delboy54]

16 hours ago, magnkarl said:

67% of the UK are not in hysterics for Palestinians, they just think Israel is committing war crimes, daily. And they are. 

Interesting, where did that data come from? How many were polled.?

Need to understand that continually launching indiscriminate missiles for years into Israel should also be regarded as "war crimes".

Or is it that if Israel does it, it's a warm crime, if the terrorists do it, it's not a war crime?