Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 hour ago, sne said:

 

Sorry but I no longer give credibility to X posts.   Nor do I access them to read further lies and half truth.  

If it were correct I have the following comments -  

1. The map was shown to the UN. The UN has previously stated that the Palestinians are under the occupation of Israel.  If this map shows the limits of Israeli occupation then its correct according to the UN.  

2. What is the context of this map?  The holder could easily be saying "This was the position as suggested by the Israel government of 1956." 

If you have further information @snethen I would love to read it and possibly debate it.  

 

 

[sne]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Sorry but I no longer give credibility to X posts.   Nor do I access them to read further lies and half truth.  

If it were correct I have the following comments -  

1. The map was shown to the UN. The UN has previously stated that the Palestinians are under the occupation of Israel.  If this map shows the limits of Israeli occupation then its correct according to the UN.  

2. What is the context of this map?  The holder could easily be saying "This was the position as suggested by the Israel government of 1956." 

If you have further information @snethen I would love to read it and possibly debate it.  

 

 

Nah, if you're interested I'm sure you can find the information you need by a quick google. Use whatever sources you find credible.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

8 minutes ago, sne said:

Nah, if you're interested I'm sure you can find the information you need by a quick google. Use whatever sources you find credible.

@sne

Well, I am I interested.

I was interested enough to view the speech to the UN.  I can see maps.  I cannot see the one you mention.

But I did hear a man mention reconciliation and partnership with the arab people. 

I also saw him hold up a map where the entire middle east was in 1 colour and titled "The Blessing". 

Maybe watch the speech yourself.  

But if this ISN'T what you were referring to then please let me know. 

 

[sne]

Seen it, read the articles, had the tour.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

@sne

Maybe you would like to read this article that states the borders were not drawn.  

Again it doesn't seem to include the map in Elon Musk's fantasy world of liars. 

But it does indeed omit the borders. But again it comes from a speech referring to a UNITED partnership of Arabs and Jews. 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/in-un-speech-netanyahu-holds-map-showing-west-bank-gaza-as-part-of-israel/3343706

In UN speech, Netanyahu holds map showing West Bank, Gaza as part of Israel

Unless you can show me otherwise @Sne I am now convinced that the map you shared via X was completely fake and the use of the map taken out of context. 

Let me know if you think differently. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

@sne

I am no expert but I think I have stumbled across the real picture.  

Doesn't the title and context make a huge difference. 

"Israel in 1948"

 

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-saudi-arabia-netanyahu-promotes-normalisation-new-map-erasing-palestine

 

[sne]

From last year.

Quote

Netanyahu under fire for using Greater Land of Israel map at UN

Netanyahu used the map to illustrate a new era of peace in the Middle East that would include the Palestinians, but critics say he sent the opposite message.

Prime Minister Netanyahu is under fire on social media for holding up a map at the United Nations General Assembly plenum on Friday that placed the West Bank and Gaza within the boundaries of sovereign Israel. 

The second map, which portrayed the year 2023 had seven countries in Green, including Israel and Saudi Arabia. It was meant to illustrate how Israel now had friends in the region and how a normalization deal with Saudi Arabia would expand that.

But the map that Netanyahu used, includes all the territory the Palestinians believe should be part of the borders of their future state. This includes the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem. The latter is under Israeli sovereignty, but the West Bank is outside those sovereign borders. It is divided into three sections Areas A and B which is under the governmental auspices of the Palestinian Authority and Area C, which is under IDF military and civilian rule. The Israeli Right including members of Netanyahu’s government wants to annex Area C. Israel had agreed to suspend annexation plans in exchange for the Abraham Accords.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

[Wainy316]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Yep it's a bit rich saying that Israel needs to remove its leaders but not place that emphasis in equal measure on Israel's enemies.

The public can vote out Israel's leaders though

[bickster]

Just now, Wainy316 said:

The public can vote out Israel's leaders though

They can do that in Lebanon too. Hezbollah are a minority party with no power, still some people are voting them in.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 minute ago, sne said:

From last year.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

Err..........as I said above.  It's a map of Israel in 1948.  It even says that in big bold letters. 

The one you posted said it was a plan for the area in the future.

 

[Wainy316]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

They can do that in Lebanon too. Hezbollah are a minority party with no power, still some people are voting them in.

Do they really care about a parliamentary mandate though.  They basically operate/operated as a state within a state anyway and I would imagine they'd take a more heavy handed approach with dissenters.

[Wainy316]

Hamas too.  Elected as the largest party 20 or so years ago.  Killed all their opponents and ruled ever since with no kind of free or fair election.

Edited yesterday at 10:14 by Wainy316

[sne]

3 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Err..........as I said above.  It's a map of Israel in 1948.  It even says that in big bold letters. 

The one you posted said it was a plan for the area in the future.

 

Quote

Netanyahu held up two maps at the UN during his speech,The first was intended to represent the geography of 1948, showing how Israel was alone in the Middle East and had no allies.  .

The second map, which portrayed the year 2023 had seven countries in Green, including Israel and Saudi Arabia. It was meant to illustrate how Israel now had friends in the region and how a normalization deal with Saudi Arabia would expand that.

But the map that Netanyahu used, includes all the territory the Palestinians believe should be part of the borders of their future state. This includes the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem. The latter is under Israeli sovereignty, but the West Bank is outside those sovereign borders. It is divided into three sections Areas A and B which is under the governmental auspices of the Palestinian Authority and Area C, which is under IDF military and civilian rule. The Israeli Right including members of Netanyahu’s government wants to annex Area C

 

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

Edited yesterday at 10:13 by sne

[Mandy Lifeboats]

7 minutes ago, sne said:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/politics-and-diplomacy/article-760189

Still waiting to see the map.  You told me to Google it.  I did. 

But even if the map existed you still need to consider the context.  It was a map taking about the area negotiating peace and prosperity from a year ago. 

If I show you a picture of the UK without the Welsh border or the Scottish border and suggest we all work together for the common good that's not to be interpreted as a desire to crush Scottish or Welsh Independence. 

Edited yesterday at 10:20 by Mandy Lifeboats
Spelling mishsteaks

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, Wainy316 said:

Hamas too.  Elected as the largest party 20 or so years ago.  Killed all their opponents and ruled ever since with no kind of free or fair election.

Well no, that wouldn't be fair would it, there are more adults alive in Gaza that didn't have the opportunity to vote for Hamas than those who actually did. I didn't mention Hamas / Gaza for that reason.

[Jareth]

2 hours ago, bickster said:

Yep it's a bit rich saying that Israel needs to remove its leaders but not place that emphasis in equal measure on Israel's enemies.

In Israel that can be achieved at the ballot box - elsewhere it's not so easy. 

Argh - hadn't read back the page - scuzeee

Edited yesterday at 10:22 by Jareth

[sne]

11 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Still waiting to see the map.  You told me to Google it.  I did. 

But even if the map existed you still need to consider the context.  It was a map taking about the area negotiating peace and prosperity from a year ago. 

If I show you a picture of the UK without the Welsh border or the Scottish border and suggest we all work together for the common good that's not to be interpreted as a desire to crush Scottish or Welsh Independence. 

But you are not Netanyahu or his merry band of xenophobic, ultra nationalistic, religious zealots. By all means give him the benefit of doubt.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

The massive problem preventing peace is that Israel is a democracy and it's people have democratically elected an extremists government.  It's extreme but achieving what people actually want. 

The Palestinians are no a democracy and it's peop,e are being punished with no ability to defeat the enemy or overthrow their own government.  

 

[Jareth]

You have to give it to Netanyahu, he knows how to survive. What will it take for him to be voted out? He's not interested in the hostages anymore, was he ever? Perhaps heavy IDF casualties if they go into Lebanon properly. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Just now, sne said:

But you are not Netanyahu or his merry band of xenophobic, ultra nationalistic, religious zealots. By all means give him the benefit of doubt.

Sincere question-  did you actually listen to the speech and the context of the map?  Or did you just react to the picture and the X post?  

I listed to the speech I posted (on double speed).  It was a speech of partnership.