Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[magnkarl]

9 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Nope, you’re putting words into my mouth. My beef is Netanyahu for reasons previously stated. No narrative other than that. 

So why then did the tweet say IDF and not Benny? If your beef is with Netanyahu, you've picked an awfully conspiratorial and untrue tweet to try to describe that. It's not the IDF that negotiates the release of the hostages, they're the armed forces of the country, not the negotiators at a hostage release negotiation in Egypt. You're being very evasive.

Edited June 10 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

12 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

So why then did the tweet say IDF and not Benny? If your beef is with Netanyahu, you've picked an awfully conspiratorial and untrue tweet to try to describe that. It's not the IDF that negotiates the release of the hostages, they're the armed forces of the country, not the negotiators at a hostage release negotiation in Egypt. You're being very evasive.

Nibble all you want. I've explained already. 

[omariqy]

 

[magnkarl]

16 hours ago, omariqy said:

 

Note the term nonviolent:

BBC

Quote

Mr Tamimi, who accepted a plea bargain, was also fined $1,280 (£800) and given a three-year suspended sentence.

He was charged earlier this month with assaulting a police officer, taking part in an unlicensed demonstration and activity against the public order.

A plea bargain goes a long way in admitting that you are guilty of at least part of what you are charged for. Is this like that time you posted a tweet about the Israeli police defending themselves against a man who stabbed a police officer and sadly died, and then claimed they wouldn't be treated like that in the West?

Throwing rocks at police and being violent during an arrest will get you prison time in this country too.

Edited June 11 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

Let’s hope that Hamas are ready to stop playing games, given that Israel has already accepted this peace proposal and everyone but Russia on the security council is backing the peace plan.

Things are getting increasingly volatile between Hezbollah and Israel, and the only way that can calm down is if there’s a ceasefire in Gaza. We might be looking at a bigger war in the Middle East if Hamas turn it down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw448x7lxggo

The United Nations Security Council has voted to support a US-proposed Israel-Gaza ceasefire plan.

The proposal sets out conditions for a "full and complete ceasefire", the release of hostages held by Hamas, the return of dead hostages' remains and the exchange of Palestinian prisoners. 

Fourteen of the 15 Security Council members voted in favour of the US-drafted resolution. Russia abstained. 

The resolution states that Israel has accepted the ceasefire proposal, and urges Hamas to agree to it too.

Edited June 11 by Panto_Villan

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Note the term nonviolent:

BBC

A plea bargain goes a long way in admitting that you are guilty of at least part of what you are charged for. Is this like that time you posted a tweet about the Israeli police defending themselves against a man who stabbed a police officer and sadly died, and then claimed they wouldn't be treated like that in the West?

Throwing rocks at police and being violent during an arrest will get you prison time in this country too.

233 people were killed (including 46 children) during the Great Return march. That wouldn’t happen in this country. 

His daughter remains in prison for speaking out against the occupation. Speaking.

You missed this part of the article. Amnesty International that well known Hamas unit.

 

Quote

Amnesty International had demanded his immediate and unconditional release, saying he was the victim of a "campaign of harassment, intimidation and arbitrary detention" by the Israeli authorities.

It said he had been held solely for peacefully expressing his rights to freedom of expression of assembly when he attended a non-violent protest on 24 October at an Israeli-owned supermarket near Shaar Benjamin against the encroachment of settlers onto Palestinian land.

Those taking part waved Palestinian flags and banners in English and Arabic reading "Boycott occupation and its products".

'Brutal arrest'

Amnesty cited witness and media reports as saying that as the protesters left the supermarket they were beaten by Israeli security forces personnel, who also fired stun grenades.

Mr Tamimi's wife Nariman was quoted as saying: "The police were brutal during the arrest. They threw Bassem on the ground and pressed him down while putting the cuffs on his hands. Anyone who tried to approach them was beaten up. The police seemed scared and nervous. They wanted to make arrests fast." 

The activist was later charged with assaulting a police officer, participation in an unlicensed demonstration, and activity against the public order. It is not clear to which charges he pleaded guilty.

 

Edited June 11 by omariqy

[omariqy]

36 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Let’s hope that Hamas are ready to stop playing games, given that Israel has already accepted this peace proposal and everyone but Russia on the security council is backing the peace plan.

Things are getting increasingly volatile between Hezbollah and Israel, and the only way that can calm down is if there’s a ceasefire in Gaza. We might be looking at a bigger war in the Middle East if Hamas turn it down.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw448x7lxggo

The United Nations Security Council has voted to support a US-proposed Israel-Gaza ceasefire plan.

The proposal sets out conditions for a "full and complete ceasefire", the release of hostages held by Hamas, the return of dead hostages' remains and the exchange of Palestinian prisoners. 

Fourteen of the 15 Security Council members voted in favour of the US-drafted resolution. Russia abstained. 

The resolution states that Israel has accepted the ceasefire proposal, and urges Hamas to agree to it too.

 

[Jareth]

I'm slightly gobsmacked the Israeli forces bothered to arrest someone rather than shoot them.

[Panto_Villan]

11 minutes ago, omariqy said:

 

I’d like them to accept the deal, not try to negotiate it. They’ve got history of changing a few critical clauses to things they know Israel will never accept and then announcing they’ve “accepted” the deal. There’s widespread support for the deal as is so I’m guessing it’s not unreasonable in its present form.

Edited June 11 by Panto_Villan

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, omariqy said:

233 people were killed (including 46 children) during the Great Return march. That wouldn’t happen in this country. 

His daughter remains in prison for speaking out against the occupation. Speaking.

You missed this part of the article. Amnesty International that well known Hamas unit.

 

 

You are missing the point, you are uncritically posting a tweet from a man claiming that this guy was non-violent when he's admitted to assaulting a police officer. In his case he'd be in prison in the UK too.

That's not to say that there aren't people in Israeli prisons who shouldn't be, but to be frank there are also plenty of people in there who have done things that would land them in prison pretty much anywhere. 

His daughter also assaulted a police officer, her second time after also biting one at the ripe age of 14, though that seems to not be a crime in your book since that's now two people today that are 'unguilty' but have both accepted plea bargains for their crimes.

Quote

Gabi Leski, Tamimi’s defense attorney, said after his client’s release that it was “sad that we have had to get to a day like this in which the State of Israel arraigns minors for resisting occupation.”

However, she also added that the soldier who had been assaulted by Tamimi and those in the area were deserving of praise for “acting with restraint.”

The truth is always somewhere in the middle, isn't it? Calling the Tamimi-family non-violent seems a bit of a special way of interpreting two violent plea deals for assaulting police and soldiers.

Ahed isn't in prison either, by the way. 

Edited June 11 by magnkarl

[sne]

Quote

US, Saudi Arabia close to finalizing draft security treaty, WSJ reports

 The Biden administration is close to finalizing a treaty with Saudi Arabia that would commit the U.S. to help defend the Gulf nation as part of a deal aimed at encouraging diplomatic ties between Riyadh and Israel, the Wall Street Journal reported on Sunday, citing U.S. and Saudi officials.

The possible deal, widely telegraphed by U.S. and other officials for weeks, is part of a wider package that would include a U.S.-Saudi civil nuclear pact, steps toward the establishment of a Palestinian state and an end to the war in Gaza, where months of ceasefire efforts have failed to bring peace.

 

Approval of the treaty, which the WSJ said would be known as the Strategic Alliance Agreement, would require a two-thirds majority vote in the U.S. Senate, a threshold that would be difficult to achieve unless the treaty were tied to Israeli-Saudi normalization.

The draft treaty is modeled loosely on Washington's mutual security pact with Japan, the newspaper cited U.S. and Saudi officials as saying.

 

In exchange for the U.S. commitment to help defend Saudi Arabia if it were attacked, the draft treaty would grant Washington access to Saudi territory and airspace to protect U.S. interests and regional partners, the newspaper reported.

It is also intended to bind Riyadh closer to Washington by prohibiting China from building bases in the kingdom or pursuing security cooperation with Riyadh, the WSJ quoted officials as saying.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-saudi-arabia-close-finalizing-draft-security-treaty-wsj-reports-2024-06-09/

[magnkarl]

On 09/06/2024 at 04:04, Jareth said:

4 hostages released - 200 odd killed - can only be 

 

I think you need to watch this video about the rescue of said hostages, and then maybe you'll understand why many 'civilians' armed with AK-47s while holding hostages died, since you insist that the people holding hostages and shooting back at special ops forces who suffer the consequences of that are civilians.

Let's just get something clear here, even if Israel does exactly what many people have called for which is to rescue hostages, people find a way to spin it. This time it was all the civilians 'just being peaceful' while holding hostages and firing at the people who came to rescue them. Let's completely ignore the facts.

(I've made it a spoiler as it's NSFW). Listen to the amount of bloody incoming machine gun fire. I'd also love for you to point out where you see civilian clothing on the soldiers saving these hostages, which so many people bandy around as some sort of excuse for their anger.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited June 12 by magnkarl

[bielesibub]

I accidentally stumbled across Rabbi Jonathan Kligler when I was looking into how the brutal/cold Judaism can appear to an outsider. I read a blog entry that he wrote 7 years ago and was quite moved by it. As a consequence I'm now hooked on learning more.

I recommend anyone interested in a balanced view on the Israel/Palestine view to have a read. The entry below is one where the Rabbi writes about how he sees the situation in Israel/Gaza has got the where its got.

https://jonathankligler.substack.com/p/the-right-wing-extremists-are-in (the blog is quite long so I've only included the first paragraph. *mods, I hope this is ok, I don't want anymore visits to the naughty step)

Quote

Dear Friends,

When I initiated this blog in the aftermath of October 7, I included an aspirational tagline: “A clear Jewish voice from a respected liberal rabbi in a time of uncertainty and upheaval.” I have done my humble best to live up to that description; as circumstances have evolved, so have my own perspectives. Early in the war, after the atrocities of October 7, I fully supported Israel’s right to take the fight to Hamas. Now, nearly eight months later, I am far from certain that this is still the best path for Israel. Early on I was willing to support the Israeli government in wartime despite my loathing and mistrust of the current coalition. Now that it has been clear for some time that the current government has no intention of ending this war, I can no longer offer even that conditional support.

........

 

[magnkarl]

Might be time to change who we're protesting against:

Quote

Speaking at a news conference in Doha on Wednesday, US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said that “Hamas has proposed numerous changes to the proposal that was on the table” for a permanent ceasefire and release of the hostages. “Some of the changes are workable. Some are not,” he said, without providing further details.

Typically, people will blame Israel when Hamas won't give back the hostages, and by the accounts of the hostages freed they've been ferried from one civilian house to the next for almost 9 months now.

The hostages are probably mostly dead, that's why Hamas doesn't want to give them up.

The underlying point is once again that Palestinian organisations are furthering this with the absolute help of the non-conditional support they get from Qatar and the people protesting for them. There's absolutely no capital to be gained from giving up the hostages, especially if they're dead. There's lots of capital to be gained by pretending like it's Israel not wanting peace and then chucking some more rockets at Israel from civilian infrastructure while crying foul when Israel responds.

The reason there is no ceasefire is 100% because of Hamas.

Edited June 13 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

Go Amnesty, go! Isn't it about time we just shut down Amnesty after their idiocy with Ukraine and this?

When even "respected" international NGOs can't get their bias checked and spread disinformation - it really isn't good for anyone.

[Panto_Villan]

I wouldn’t say it was 100% Hamas’ fault that there’s no ceasefire, but it’s certainly extremely disappointing (if predictable) that they won’t agree to it.

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

I wouldn’t say it was 100% Hamas’ fault that there’s no ceasefire, but it’s certainly extremely disappointing (if predictable) that they won’t agree to it.

Early on I would definitely agree on that, but for the last umpteen times it seems they always put something on the table (like not giving back all the hostages) so that Israel say no deal. Then they shout about how Israel doesn't want a cease fire deal on twitter and everyone blames Israel. Qatar and Egypt are starting to lose face, badly.

Hamas knows 100% what Israel will say no to, and continuously bring those points out when there's 'negotiations'. It's Hamas form, they've done similar things before.

Edited June 13 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Early on I would definitely agree on that, but for the last umpteen times it seems they always put something on the table (like not giving back all the hostages) so that Israel say no deal. Then they shout about how Israel doesn't want a cease fire deal on twitter and everyone blames Israel. Qatar and Egypt are starting to lose face, badly.

Hamas knows 100% what Israel will say no to, and continuously bring those points out when there's 'negotiations'. It's Hamas form, they've done similar things before.

I'm aware of all that, and said it a few pages above. It's still not 100% Hamas' fault that there's no ceasefire. For example, Israel won't formally agree to stop attempting to kill the Hamas leader, which probably doesn't help encourage them to agree to it.

Nonetheless, the widespread support for this deal suggests it was probably a relatively sensible solution for both sides and it's disappointing that Hamas would rather fight on. They know full well that every dead Palestinian does far more damage to Israel's reputation than it does theirs.

[chrisp65]

 

this guy was on R4 this morning, about 7:00 / 7:30, worth a listen back on iplayer

Basically describing the daily game of receiving every approval and check and stamp and piece of paperwork needed, then basically still being held at a check point for half a day. The object being, once they are delayed 8 hours they can’t get to their destination before dark, so they turn back. Which doesn’t count as being refused entry.

He tells how whilst sat there with the clock running down, he’d been watching a group of 8 fishermen. A tank rolled up and just shot 2 of the fishermen in the back.

 

[omariqy]