Panto_Villan Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, sne said: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed Long article. Yeah, read that earlier. It’s dirty (and seemingly pretty incompetent) stuff, and seems to have seriously backfired in this case. Like, if you’re worried this prosecutor might want to open an investigation into your country, why not also give them and their colleagues a personal reason to hate you? Good job, lads. I’m sure a lot of countries collect intelligence on officials from the ICC and UN and other such organisations, but I can’t imagine many go to the lengths of clumsily threatening them in hotel rooms etc. Edited May 28 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 So the UN have started scrutinising Hamas' ministry of health's reported casualty figures more heavily on behest of the ICC, and have concluded that the figures of children reported killed is much lower than what the MOH have stated repeatedly. For the Gaza ministry of health's figures to be correct, everyone who's not identified and missing would need to be children, which when you look at the percentages so far makes absolutely zero sense. Israel's figures are also being scrutinised and deemed wrong. Something needs to be done about the UN mission to Palestine after this, they seem so reliant on Hamas\PIJ\PA that they can't see the woods for trees. They're letting themselves be used as propaganda-tools by the people they're there to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 6 hours ago, magnkarl said: So the UN have started scrutinising Hamas' ministry of health's reported casualty figures more heavily on behest of the ICC, and have concluded that the figures of children reported killed is much lower than what the MOH have stated repeatedly. For the Gaza ministry of health's figures to be correct, everyone who's not identified and missing would need to be children, which when you look at the percentages so far makes absolutely zero sense. Israel's figures are also being scrutinised and deemed wrong. Something needs to be done about the UN mission to Palestine after this, they seem so reliant on Hamas\PIJ\PA that they can't see the woods for trees. They're letting themselves be used as propaganda-tools by the people they're there to help. Is this the same story as last month? They keep announcing the figure is lower and it should be ‘x’, but ‘x’ is already the figure most news outlets have been reporting? Is the suggestion the number of murdered children is now significantly lower than 14,000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 5 VT Supporter Share Posted June 5 You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that when you bomb the third most densely populated urban area on the planet, you will kill an awful lot of civilians, and when you kill an awful lot of civilians that will include a lot of kids. If you turn add on the fact that Palestine generally and Gaza particularly has quite a young population, you add in a modifier that means you'll kill even more kids. With that in mind, we know that an awful lot of civilians are dead, and I don't think 'but the exact number is wrong!' is a defence. Also add in that Israel is the nation you should trust least at the moment, and I'm not sure anyone should really care. They're killing lots of kids. The end. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 6 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Is this the same story as last month? They keep announcing the figure is lower and it should be ‘x’, but ‘x’ is already the figure most news outlets have been reporting? Is the suggestion the number of murdered children is now significantly lower than 14,000? I think what the ICC is trying to figure out is where the UN and Hamas gets their figures from. It appears to be alternating between the Hamas run media affairs department and the Hamas run MOH. The lowest of the two is a lot lower than the other (moh). Even though this exercise is purely legal, it’s likely to attempt to try to find out the facts rather than gobbling up the figures Hamas and Israel keeps trotting out. In order to prosecute either side the facts need to be established, just like they were in other cases put in front of the ICC. Either side have given out stats that appear wrong from the get go, a bit like when Hamas managed to fool the entire pro-Palestinian cause by saying that Israel bombed that hospital when it was a PIJ misfired rocket. Facts matter. Just like they did in Nuremberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 5 Share Posted June 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 (edited) 9 hours ago, omariqy said: I have no particular fondness for Gvir, but where does he say he'll tear up the Jordanian treaty? Do you know the particulars around the Temple Mount? It's occupied by Jordan, just like much of East Jerusalem has been for large parts of Israel's modern history. The Arabs allow one rabbi to pray at the Temples of Solomon and David (now converted to a mosque) a year, if you want to get into equality of rights in Arab nations and how that isn't discrimination then we can have that discussion. If you want to get into discussions about illegal occupation then Jordan's continued occupation of great parts of Jerusalem is a case-study in how standards are being applied to Israel but not Arab nations. It was a holy site for Jews around 1600 years before the Arabs came to the area and put a mosque there. It would be like if a Christian army went to Mecca and converted the Masjid Al-Haram into a church and allowed 1 imam to come into it once a year. Edited June 6 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 6 VT Supporter Share Posted June 6 Spain, to it's great credit, joins the ICC Israeli genocide case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Quite a shocking but unsurprising thread to read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 On 06/06/2024 at 07:11, magnkarl said: I have no particular fondness for Gvir, but where does he say he'll tear up the Jordanian treaty? Do you know the particulars around the Temple Mount? It's occupied by Jordan, just like much of East Jerusalem has been for large parts of Israel's modern history. The Arabs allow one rabbi to pray at the Temples of Solomon and David (now converted to a mosque) a year, if you want to get into equality of rights in Arab nations and how that isn't discrimination then we can have that discussion. If you want to get into discussions about illegal occupation then Jordan's continued occupation of great parts of Jerusalem is a case-study in how standards are being applied to Israel but not Arab nations. It was a holy site for Jews around 1600 years before the Arabs came to the area and put a mosque there. It would be like if a Christian army went to Mecca and converted the Masjid Al-Haram into a church and allowed 1 imam to come into it once a year. The Rabbi should pray harder to the sky men and enact change through peaceful mechanisms. Maybe it will work eh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 7 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7 Definitely not an apartheid regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 (edited) 7 hours ago, Harkanon said: The Rabbi should pray harder to the sky men and enact change through peaceful mechanisms. Maybe it will work eh Are we back at pretending that it's rabbis and Israel that is the 100% at fault party here? The PA loves that thought, that way they can keep getting rich on your aid. Let's turn it around, how would a Muslim feel if their most holy site was fenced off and made off-limits to them? It might be time to read a bit about the Wailing Wall and why Jews pray to a stone wall below the temple mount, rather than the actual temple. It's the closest thing to our holiest site, we're barred from the actual one by the Arab league/Jordan. Imagine barring Christians from the Vatican, Muslims from the Masjid Al-Haram, Buddhists from Lumbini or Hindus from Varanasi. I imagine that it's not something many people know as it doesn't get reported on much. My father had to pilgrim to mount Zion outside of Jerusalem to get a glimpse of the temple mount as Jordan wouldn't let Jews travel to the Wall or the Temple Mount during their occupation, and the restrictions are still in place on the occupied mount today. Edited June 7 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 7 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7 Israel added to the UN's list of states and organisations that commit harm to children. Obviously true, and right, Israel is furious about it, the 'most moral army' (stop laughing) shouldn't possibly be named as harming children. The news comes a day after they flattened another UN school, killing 40, including children. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted June 7 Share Posted June 7 1 hour ago, Chindie said: Israel added to the UN's list of states and organisations that commit harm to children. Obviously true, and right, Israel is furious about it, the 'most moral army' (stop laughing) shouldn't possibly be named as harming children. The news comes a day after they flattened another UN school, killing 40, including children. Again. Remember when we were pretending that Israel didn’t deliberately target schools and hospitals? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 7 VT Supporter Share Posted June 7 1 hour ago, omariqy said: Remember when we were pretending that Israel didn’t deliberately target schools and hospitals? Nah. I do remember when we were justifying it though. Which is probably worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 7 hours ago, omariqy said: Remember when we were pretending that Israel didn’t deliberately target schools and hospitals? They don’t ‘deliberately target schools and hospitals’, they target places where they have identified Hamas as operating from, regardless of whether that is a school, hospital or otherwise. They also don’t seem to be too fussed who else is in that location and gets hit collaterally. I can imagine there is a theory amongst the Israeli leadership that the Palestinian population will get angry at Hamas for attracting bombs in their direction and will try to drive Hamas away. Personally I don’t see that as likely. I think the bombing will drive more Palestinian’s towards Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Nobody should care how many children Israel has actually killed. All the evidence of the misfiring Hamas rocket at that hospital can’t have existed at all. Nice to see people saying what they really think - facts aren’t relevant when criticising Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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