desensitized43 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 1 hour ago, Panto_Villan said: I don't actually think it'd be a good idea to have outside peacekeeping forces in Palestine anyway, so I don't think it's relevant. I'm sure Hamas could keep the other Palestinians in line if they wanted to; the only reason you'd need outside peacekeepers is if you were trying to hold elections or cut the militant groups out of the government. And if you attempt that - well, the men with the guns aren't exactly going to thrilled, are they? And that's the crux of the problem. If the Israeli military can't wipe out Hamas, how would Qatar or any other local military force manage it? Especially when the Israelis are using very little restraint, and the peacekeepers would be expected to avoid civilian casualties. It'd be an impossible task. So I feel like any Palestinian state would be a dictatorship governed by militants. In an ideal world they'd end up in a similar position to Hezbollah, where they avoid large scale conflict with Israel because they don't want half their country to get flattened. Maybe in time that could lead to a more durable peace. Of course, in reality it'd probably just result in Israel repeatedly invading Palestine to try to stamp up the militants attacking them ... but ultimately, at least there's a chance things might settle down if Palestine was made an independent state. There's zero chance that'll happen in the current setup. Peacekeepers aren’t for “wiping someone out”. They’re there to keep 2 sides apart which generally means they take fire from both sides and to protect civilians from indiscriminate violence. That violence is usually in the form of a bunch of random militia people rocking up in a truck and wiping out a village. Not stopping a sophisticated western army shelling and bombing an area or stopping terrorists doing terroristy things. Its a complete non-starter. It’s possible to have a Palestinian government that’s fairly moderate but that can’t happen when you’ve got hamas there because they’ll just take over…because guns and the Israelis have to support the idea and it’s pretty evident they don’t want that because it would remove a significant barrier to Palestinian statehood…a government we could work with that isn’t a bunch of thuggish dirty terrorists. After all this is done there needs to be a period of reconstruction and deradicalisation of the Palestinian population on the level of post war Germany, in time some elections there to get a better government to lay the groundwork for a peace process. At the moment the peace process can’t restart because there neither side want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 All this talk of to the river to the sea and no mention that it’s in Likuds founding charter. Anyway, quelle surprise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 25 minutes ago, omariqy said: All this talk of to the river to the sea and no mention that it’s in Likuds founding charter. It's been mentioned on this thread about a thousand times. The difference is, you won't find anyone offering mealy-mouthed "but acktchooally they don't really mean it..." justifications of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 36 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: Peacekeepers aren’t for “wiping someone out”. They’re there to keep 2 sides apart which generally means they take fire from both sides and to protect civilians from indiscriminate violence. That violence is usually in the form of a bunch of random militia people rocking up in a truck and wiping out a village. Not stopping a sophisticated western army shelling and bombing an area or stopping terrorists doing terroristy things. Its a complete non-starter. It’s possible to have a Palestinian government that’s fairly moderate but that can’t happen when you’ve got hamas there because they’ll just take over…because guns and the Israelis have to support the idea and it’s pretty evident they don’t want that because it would remove a significant barrier to Palestinian statehood…a government we could work with that isn’t a bunch of thuggish dirty terrorists. After all this is done there needs to be a period of reconstruction and deradicalisation of the Palestinian population on the level of post war Germany, in time some elections there to get a better government to lay the groundwork for a peace process. At the moment the peace process can’t restart because there neither side want it. Sounds like you’re talking about peacekeepers that would patrol the border with Israel and keep the Palestinians and Israelis apart? I think what everyone else is talking about in this context is neutral peacekeepers who would take over the security of Gaza and West Bank from the IDF, and ensure everyone was treated equally, prevent further settlements etc. This would potentially enable the formation of a moderate Palestinian government, etc. If it worked it’d be perfect, but there’s obvious practical problems with how policing would work even if Israel were genuinely supportive of the idea of a free Palestine (which they wouldn’t be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 27 VT Supporter Share Posted May 27 7 minutes ago, ml1dch said: It's been mentioned on this thread about a thousand times. The difference is, you won't find anyone offering mealy-mouthed "but acktchooally they don't really mean it..." justifications of it. It's ok, you can quote me Some of us have the fortitude to be clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 31 minutes ago, ml1dch said: It's been mentioned on this thread about a thousand times. The difference is, you won't find anyone offering mealy-mouthed "but acktchooally they don't really mean it..." justifications of it. So they do mean it and are practicing what they preach right now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 23 minutes ago, Chindie said: It's ok, you can quote me Some of us have the fortitude to be clear. I would have, were you the only one. Wouldn't want to give you all the credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Good to know that we have agreed the Likud party are committing genocide 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 3 minutes ago, omariqy said: So they do mean it and are practicing what they preach right now? Absolutely. Which is why everyone with more brain cells than fingers thinks Likud are absolute, cast-iron c****. Also an opinion held as far as I can tell, by everyone who posts regularly on this thread. Apart from that weird bot account, obviously. Edited May 27 by ml1dch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Good and I also agree Hamas are words removed and intent on the destruction of Israel and Jewish people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: What happened 70 years ago for this to have a start date? How would you feel if someone had started that same sentence but with ‘Israelis’? I’d say that the whole situation, Israeli or Palestinian, was effed up from the get go. The difference, at least to me being a Jew with absolutely no need or want to be Israeli, is that the Palestinian supporters are near permanently backing, stroking and excusing a people who have had their own fair share of the fault for the situation. How’s those hostages? The amount of aid, support and outrage of Israel’s reaction by certain milleus (you’ll find typical people of this in this thread) for Palestine after they once again did something horrendous and Israel is responding in the same manner they always did is beyond me. In order to move on here it is clear as day that both sets of supporters need to calm down, stop being nasty idiots, and stop supporting each party to the hilt, that’s imo partly why they’re never able to move towards peace because you’ve got people who can’t call a spade a spade even if it’s bombing civilians, taking hostages or working for the most fundamentalist states in the world for no betterment to anyone. We’ve got neo-nazis walking in support of the only Jewish state in the world and communists and so called liberals walking for a fundamentalist Islamic dictatorship who throws their ilk off buildings. The world has gone mad, and people bleet to whatever their social media person tells them. (Lowkey, gg, cw, Benny, IDF, swp, Farage or whatever) Time for someone less entrenched to try to solve this, how about Japan, South Korea and the like? Edited May 27 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted May 27 Popular Post Share Posted May 27 How about just like we rightly mustn’t confuse Jews with Israel, we mustn’t confuse empathy for the people of Palestine with support for Hamas. It’s tiresome and deliberate. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 12 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: How about just like we rightly mustn’t confuse Jews with Israel, we mustn’t confuse empathy for the people of Palestine with support for Hamas. It’s tiresome and deliberate. Hamas is a creation of nearly 20 years. This conflict goes back to the Balfour declaration. Or have we once again drawn a line so that we can justify what our team is doing is totally faultless? The whole conflict is a dumpster fire. Both sides are culpable, both sets of supporters thinks their side is in varying forms faultless. None of them are, even if you shuffle the dates around as much as you want. The side currently on top elected a fascist, the side who was on top Oct 7th still by a majority support a terrorist organisation akin to ISIL, even in the West Bank. Blind support of either side spurs them on. People suffer while greedy leaders get rich from perpetuating hate and racism. Remove whatever moral high ground the leaders of Israel and Palestine think they have by engaging their bases outside the conflict and this might actually stop one day. Edited May 27 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Meanwhile here is Human Rights Watch co-founder and Holocaust survivor Aryeh Neiler Quote Human Rights Watch co-founder Aryeh Neier, who fled the Nazis as a child, tells Fareed why he has come to the conclusion that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/05/26/gps-0526-icc-charges-against-israel.cnn Video in the link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) What took him so long? Note: there's a good dispatches on channel four now (9pm) showing the horror going on in Gaza. Edited May 27 by villa89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 21 minutes ago, villa89 said: What took him so long? Note: there's a good dispatches on channel four now (9pm) showing the horror going on in Gaza. It really is eye opening even more so than the social media videos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 Just reminded me of the time we were arguing on here whether Israel fired on a hospital or it was a misfired rocket. Think I’ve lost count how many hospitals have been bombed since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 (edited) 29 minutes ago, omariqy said: It really is eye opening even more so than the social media videos About as harrowing an hour's TV as you can get. Man's inhumanity to man makes countless thousands mourn. Edited May 27 by villa89 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Quote Spying, hacking and intimidation: Israel’s nine-year ‘war’ on the ICC exposed Exclusive: Investigation reveals how intelligence agencies tried to derail war crimes prosecution, with Netanyahu ‘obsessed’ with intercepts Revealed: Israeli spy chief ‘threatened’ ICC prosecutor over war crimes inquiry Now, an investigation by the Guardian and the Israeli-based magazines +972 and Local Call can reveal how Israel has run an almost decade-long secret “war” against the court. The country deployed its intelligence agencies to surveil, hack, pressure, smear and allegedly threaten senior ICC staff in an effort to derail the court’s inquiries. Israeli intelligence captured the communications of numerous ICC officials, including Khan and his predecessor as prosecutor, Fatou Bensouda, intercepting phone calls, messages, emails and documents. The surveillance was ongoing in recent months, providing Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, with advance knowledge of the prosecutor’s intentions. A recent intercepted communication suggested that Khan wanted to issue arrest warrants against Israelis but was under “tremendous pressure from the United States”, according to a source familiar with its contents. Bensouda, who as chief prosecutor opened the ICC’s investigation in 2021, paving the way for last week’s announcement, was also spied on and allegedly threatened. Netanyahu has taken a close interest in the intelligence operations against the ICC, and was described by one intelligence source as being “obsessed” with intercepts about the case. Overseen by his national security advisers, the efforts involved the domestic spy agency, the Shin Bet, as well as the military’s intelligence directorate, Aman, and cyber-intelligence division, Unit 8200. Intelligence gleaned from intercepts was, sources said, disseminated to government ministries of justice, foreign affairs and strategic affairs. A covert operation against Bensouda, revealed on Tuesday by the Guardian, was run personally by Netanyahu’s close ally Yossi Cohen, who was at the time the director of Israel’s foreign intelligence agency, the Mossad. At one stage, the spy chief even enlisted the help of the then president of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, Joseph Kabila. Details of Israel’s nine-year campaign to thwart the ICC’s inquiry have been uncovered by the Guardian, an Israeli-Palestinian publication +972 Magazine and Local Call, a Hebrew-language outlet. https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed Long article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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