Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[omariqy]

9 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Jewish people didn't pop out of the ground in Palestine, and the land would never have been uniquely Jewish, because there's never been many Jewish people, and that land has always been a crossroads due to its location. Arguments to historic ownership are bunk.

I mean there's been DNA tests done to show that the Lebanese are probably the closest descendants of the Cananites left if we really want to go down that road. I don't in particular. Regardless of which falling empire was in charge, there were a people there already and they were killed and or displaced without cause. To paint it any other way is disingenuous.

[omariqy]

I've also never had any issues with Jewish people being there or in fact having a home there. My issues has been how it happened and continues to happen. 

Likewise I'm not particularly bothered about Muslims ruling it or Arabs. What I am bothered about is an apartheid state. Illegal settlements. Occupation. Indiscriminate bombing. Breaking international law. The list goes on. 

Edited May 25 by omariqy

[chrisp65]

18 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

That cuts both ways, though. As bicks already pointed out, there’s been Jews in the region long before it fell under Arab control. One of the big expulsions of Jews from the area happened after a war with the Romans some six hundred years before Islam was even founded, so arguably you’re making a point in favour of the existence of Israel there.

It does cut both ways and I would argue for an Israel.

It absolutely cuts both ways and I will argue for the underdog, when the empire builder is committing war crimes. Be they Egyptian, Roman, Turk, Brit, or Israeli telling 4 generations that the land is now someone else’s and anyone resisting is a terrorist is just against common sense and decency.

Killing all the buffalo, taking all the gold, enslaving the locals, felling the timber, or burning the olive groves doesn’t make colonialists right. If the indigenous people upset you, it’s probably not your land and there is a world of difference between pointing to a 2000 year old text as proof of ownership, and stealing the houses of grandmothers.
 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Are you prepared to give your home back to someone claiming to be a Pict or Celt?

There were also always a decent sized Jewish minority or majority in the area, don’t they have the same right to a country as the Arabs?

If my house had been in a Pictish family for generations, and I turned up with an army and took it off them, I’d probably have to concede it was theirs yes.

If the Germans had moved a German family in to my farm in 1946, that would still be mine.

If they had some nebulous proof that their ancestors in history had lived in some sort of geographical proximity and had a book that said a god had promised them they were superior, no, I probably wouldn’t take kindly to being moved to a refugee camp and told I’m stateless and legally inferior.

[colhint]

I think some people forget how old Judaism is. This goes back millennia. There's plenty of evidence there were in the area 4000 years ago.

[Chindie]

No, they just don't think it matters.

[Panto_Villan]

23 minutes ago, omariqy said:

I mean there's been DNA tests done to show that the Lebanese are probably the closest descendants of the Cananites left if we really want to go down that road. I don't in particular. Regardless of which falling empire was in charge, there were a people there already and they were killed and or displaced without cause. To paint it any other way is disingenuous.

Without cause? I disagree with everything Hamas stand for, but I still wouldn't describe their violence as "without cause".

In your world did the Arab Palestinians and other Arab powers welcome the creation of Israel with open arms?

[omariqy]

9 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Without cause? I disagree with everything Hamas stand for, but I still wouldn't describe their violence as "without cause".

In your world did the Arab Palestinians and other Arab powers welcome the creation of Israel with open arms?

I was talking about what happened to the Palestinians sorry. No not at all. 

[omariqy]

12 minutes ago, colhint said:

I think some people forget how old Judaism is. This goes back millennia. There's plenty of evidence there were in the area 4000 years ago.

Again no one here thinks Jewish people shouldn't be present on that land. 

[chrisp65]

19 minutes ago, colhint said:

I think some people forget how old Judaism is. This goes back millennia. There's plenty of evidence there were in the area 4000 years ago.

If they have 4000 year old documentary proof an olive grove was there direct ancestors land, I’d give that far more credit than just turning up with an IDF gunman fresh in from the USA stood behind them.

[colhint]

But I think it's a bit naive to believe to think people behave rationally in these circumstances. They have no diplomatic chance to rectify the situation.  And people can't be relied upon to make cognisant decisions.  People by and large are irrational in groups.

 

[Jareth]

Which is all why a 2 state solution is necessary, whether Israel like it or not. 

[Genie]

Quote

Hamas says it has fired rockets towards the Tel Aviv area in central Israel for the first time in nearly four months.

At least eight rockets were launched from the Rafah area in southern Gaza and several were intercepted, the Israeli military says.

The Israeli army is carrying out a military operation in Rafah. No injuries have been reported.

Rocket sirens were sounded in other cities and towns, including Herzliya and Petah Tikva.

Breaking news on BBC 

[Jareth]

Apparantly Hamas have launched these rockets because they are now emboldened by the ICJ ruling. 

[magnkarl]

26 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Apparantly Hamas have launched these rockets because they are now emboldened by the ICJ ruling. 

Would you say that Hamas isn’t emboldened by the wide scale support their cause gets across the West with very little mention of their hostage taking and terror in the same marches?

Palestine seems to be able to pull it all off, act like Islamic barbarians, receive aid and help from across the globe and still have very little demanded of them in the way of acting in any way towards peace. 

Edited May 26 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

12 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Would you say that Hamas isn’t emboldened by the wide scale support their cause gets across the West with very little mention of their hostage taking and terror in the same marches?

Palestine seems to be able to pull it all off, act like Islamic barbarians, receive aid and help from across the globe and still have very little demanded of them in the way of acting in any way towards peace. 

Had the ICJ not told Israel to stop, would Hamas not bother firing rockets? I'm saying it's just political spin from a criminal and reckless government. 

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Had the ICJ not told Israel to stop, would Hamas not bother firing rockets? I'm saying it's just political spin from a criminal and reckless government. 

Weirdly some people criticise Israel for Hamas firing rockets. 

[magnkarl]

16 hours ago, omariqy said:

I mean there's been DNA tests done to show that the Lebanese are probably the closest descendants of the Cananites left if we really want to go down that road. I don't in particular. Regardless of which falling empire was in charge, there were a people there already and they were killed and or displaced without cause. To paint it any other way is disingenuous.

Ah, the old DNA-discussion around Jewish heritage.

[magnkarl]

16 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

If they have 4000 year old documentary proof an olive grove was there direct ancestors land, I’d give that far more credit than just turning up with an IDF gunman fresh in from the USA stood behind them.

There’s plenty of proof of Jews being the majority in Judea and Samaria from as far back as census done by the Babylonians before the Jews were forcefully moved to Iraq, and again by the Romans when they ruled there. It’s not like this is total pie in the sky. They’ve always sought to return there after being moved on by one colonial power after the next. If you’re rooting for the underdog it’s weird that you’ve chosen the Arabs who’s history is essentially pure colonialism, against a total Jewish population of some 15-20 million worldwide, against 400 million Arabs.

It’s why Jews greet each other with ‘next year in Jerusalem’

Edited May 26 by magnkarl

[omariqy]

18 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

There’s plenty of proof of Jews being the majority in Judea and Samaria from as far back as census done by the Babylonians before the Jews were forcefully moved to Iraq, and again by the Romans when they ruled there. It’s not like this is total pie in the sky. They’ve always sought to return there after being moved on by one colonial power after the next. If you’re rooting for the underdog it’s weird that you’ve chosen the Arabs who’s history is essentially pure colonialism, against a total Jewish population of some 15-20 million worldwide, against 400 million Arabs.

Again no one is saying Jewish people shouldn't have a home there. It's how it's come about that is the issue.