blandy Posted May 8 Moderator Share Posted May 8 The point about the two elements being accountable is that the two I named are the ones who need to both agree a ceasefire. Other “actors” are not involved in those talks. The Palestinian people and the Israeli people are perhaps able to pressure their leaders, certainly in Israel, but they can be ignored by those leaders at the moment. The people who ordered the attacks are the ones responsible for all the horrors (as well as, obviously the actual people following those orders). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 The meridian age in Gaza is about 18. Wasn't the last election in 2006? Safe to say most of those living and dying in Gaza didn't vote then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) Well, considering that parliamentary elections were held in 2006 and you need to be 18 to vote in Palestine, you now have people who are 35 years old today who had nothing to do with electing Hamas. So 'who elected Hamas' is a bit of a silly argument. Edited May 8 by Mic09 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: I think it's difficult to call for equality of reaction from neutrals, when one set of victims are labelled true victims, whilst the other set, about x30 more of them, asked for it. I shall reiterate what I said. A large number of Palestinians voted for a sexist, racist and homophobic government that proposed a genocide war against Israel. Their government delivered exactly what they promised. No Palestinians asked for their children to be murdered. But many voted for the genocide of Israelis. There is blame on BOTH sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 22 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Well, considering that parliamentary elections were held in 2006 and you need to be 18 to vote in Palestine, you now have people who are 35 years old today who had nothing to do with electing Hamas. So 'who elected Hamas' is a bit of a silly argument. I would agree but the opinion polls show this- Support for Hamas was 45% before the Israel attacks. It then shot up to 69%. Its still hovering around 60%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 Just now, Mandy Lifeboats said: I would agree but the opinion polls show this- Support for Hamas was 45% before the Israel attacks. It then shot up to 69%. Its still hovering around 60%. Yes I think they will be more popular than ever given what with the total bombing and killing of thousands of civilians and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) 17 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said: Yes I think they will be more popular than ever given what with the total bombing and killing of thousands of civilians and all. Amazingly.....they are. This opinion poll makes depressing reading. https://pcpsr.org/en/node/973 Quote These are the results of the latest poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip between 5-10 March 2024. Quote When asked about their own preference, Gazans’ support for continued Hamas control over the Gaza Strip has increased to more than 50%, a 14-point rise. Indeed, given the magnitude of the suffering in the Gaza Strip, this seems to be the most counter intuitive finding of the entire poll. Edited May 8 by Mandy Lifeboats Added details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 8 VT Supporter Share Posted May 8 It's very easy to increase support when there's an easy enemy attacking your people to point at. It's basic tribalism - we're being attacked, support Us hate Them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 36 minutes ago, sne said: The meridian age in Gaza is about 18. Wasn't the last election in 2006? Safe to say most of those living and dying in Gaza didn't vote then. Hamas’s actions last year unfortunately has much wider support amongst ordinary citizens in Gaza than we would like to acknowledge. In this conflict it is not so easy to point to one side as being justified and the other being unjustified in their actions. It’s much too messy a situation to point out the ‘good guys’ and the ‘bad guys’ anymore. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) 37 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Hamas’s actions last year unfortunately has much wider support amongst ordinary citizens in Gaza than we would like to acknowledge. In this conflict it is not so easy to point to one side as being justified and the other being unjustified in their actions. It’s much too messy a situation to point out the ‘good guys’ and the ‘bad guys’ anymore. This. Yet millions of people in the West protest for a people that in large swathes (even in WB and abroad) support a group that is on the terror list, is actively committing terrorism and have been doing so for 20 odd years. They have been steadily supporting them for a long time too, according to polling. There are no good guys, and the naivety of some of the protesters is beyond me. The top protest group for me must be 'Queers for Palestine', happily waving Islamic flags while their comrades are being thrown off of rooftops in both the WB and Gaza for simply being gay. Yet here we are, they've got their own UN-organ, receive upwards of 3 billion in aid every year and show very little willingness to move forward. At which point does the Palestine-lobby in the West start questioning if what we're doing for them is working or not? Another 70 years? I wonder where that 1 billion 'restoration' fund that Qatar sent into Gaza went. Israel uses rockets to defend their people, Palestinians use people to protect their rockets. Free Palestine. Edited May 8 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 If Hamas get a ceasefire with Netanyahu a busted flush and an increase in support they would think that all the utter destruction, death, and misery would have been worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 55 minutes ago, Chindie said: It's very easy to increase support when there's an easy enemy attacking your people to point at. It's basic tribalism - we're being attacked, support Us hate Them. That seems to be only the case for Palestinians though, who have increased their support for Hamas since Oct 7th, while Israelis by as much as 85% want Netanyahu gone for their own country's way of behaving. The Palestinian people are held to a low standard that no others get, one where whatever they do is explained by what others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 How on earth are they doing opinion polls in a warzone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: That seems to be only the case for Palestinians though, who have increased their support for Hamas since Oct 7th, while Israelis by as much as 85% want Netanyahu gone for their own country's way of behaving. The Palestinian people are held to a low standard that no others get, one where whatever they do is explained by what others do. Not an antagonistic question - but out of curiosity, as you have previously said that you talk to Israeli friends, is it really the case that approx 85% of the population want Netanyahu gone because of the overall reaction to Oct 7th, or is it that he hasn't returned the hostages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Jareth said: Not an antagonistic question - but out of curiosity, as you have previously said that you talk to Israeli friends, is it really the case that approx 85% of the population want Netanyahu gone because of the overall reaction to Oct 7th, or is it that he hasn't returned the hostages? It's a mixture of things. Many wanted him out before this war too. His persecution of the war is a big point for the left side, some are against him for the corruption, everyone in Israel wants the hostages freed (naturally). The big difference is that the Israeli people aren't supporting their war-crime infested government outside of the settler movement and far right, like the Gazans are 50-60% in favour of the organisation that led to their current predicament. It's once again a double standard for many of the people who protest for Palestine. I don't know why it's so controversial for a Western protest to want a better life for Palestinians, which means both stopping the persecution from Israel, but also stopping the multi-faceted crime from their two governments. PA must be over the moon, once the focus went to Gaza a lot of money flowed into their coffers again after several nations held back due to issues around corruption. Edited May 8 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 28 minutes ago, magnkarl said: It's a mixture of things. Many wanted him out before this war too. His persecution of the war is a big point for the left side, some are against him for the corruption, everyone in Israel wants the hostages freed (naturally). The big difference is that the Israeli people aren't supporting their war-crime infested government outside of the settler movement and far right, like the Gazans are 50-60% in favour of the organisation that led to their current predicament. It's once again a double standard for many of the people who protest for Palestine. I don't know why it's so controversial for a Western protest to want a better life for Palestinians, which means both stopping the persecution from Israel, but also stopping the multi-faceted crime from their two governments. PA must be over the moon, once the focus went to Gaza a lot of money flowed into their coffers again after several nations held back due to issues around corruption. It just differs a bit to what I've been reading about the mood in Israel - but of course I take it on board alongside that. What I've seen lately was along these lines, I get it's from a right wing rag, the Guardian had something similar. for balance. Quote In recent weeks, Biden and Netanyahu have clashed over two main issues. One is whether Israel should invade Rafah, the city in southern Gaza that is crowded with refugees, but that Netanyahu says Israel must enter in order to defeat Hamas. The other is over a long-standing divide between Netanyahu and Democratic presidents: whether Israel should agree to the establishment of a Palestinian state. On both questions, Israelis agree with Netanyahu: A poll last month by the Israel Democracy Institute found that nearly two-thirds of Israelis say Israel should “expand its military operations into Rafah.” A separate February poll by IDI found, by the same token, that 55% of Israelis oppose Palestinian statehood, compared to 37% who support it. https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-is-unpopular-at-home-but-not-for-the-reasons-us-lawmakers-are-turning-on-him/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted May 8 Share Posted May 8 1 hour ago, Genie said: How on earth are they doing opinion polls in a warzone? The answer is outlined in great detail in the link I posted above. Quote To ensure the safety of our data collectors in the Gaza Strip, we have restricted the interviews with residents and displaced persons to specific areas where there was no on-going daily fighting. These areas included the Rafah area, parts of the Khanyounis area, the central Gaza Strip, and all shelters in these areas. Our data collectors were not deployed in the besieged northern Gaza area nor in parts in the central Gaza Strip and parts in the Khanyounis area that saw daily fighting or Israeli army deployment. The data collection dates where selected carefully in the hope that the interviews would be conducted under two different conditions: continued war and a ceasefire. We hoped (1) to be able to document and measure the change that might be generated by the ceasefire, which we expected to take place on the first day of the month of Ramadan, and (2) to be able compare the findings under the two conditions. Therefore, half of the interviews were completed during the first three days of data collection. At that point, on the fourth day, 8 March, we suspended data collection in order to assess the prospects for a ceasefire. On that day, we concluded that no ceasefire would take place as we originally expected. Therefore, we resumed data collection on the fifth day and continued until 10 March. The sample size of this poll is 1580 adults, of whom 830 were interviewed face to face in the West Bank (in 83 locations) and 750 in the Gaza Strip (in 75 locations). Given the uncertainty about the population distribution in the Gaza Strip, we almost doubled the size of the sample in that area in order to lower the margin of error, which stands at +/-3%. The combined West Bank-Gaza Strip data file was reweighted to reflect the actual proportionate size of the population in the two Palestinian areas. Therefore, the sample is representative of the residents of the two areas. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 Quite depressing reading 'well your grandad voted for Hamas so that's why you're child died' Rather than Hamas came into power because of a state that was founded via terrorism and has spent 70 years cleansing your people from their homeland. I do enjoy how this is framed as either starting on Oct 7th or 2006. Like nothing happened before then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted May 9 Share Posted May 9 On 08/05/2024 at 11:43, Mandy Lifeboats said: I would agree but the opinion polls show this- Support for Hamas was 45% before the Israel attacks. It then shot up to 69%. Its still hovering around 60%. Is there actually an alternative party for Palestinians to support? Or is it basically a one party state where the option is support Hamas or support nobody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted May 9 Moderator Share Posted May 9 5 hours ago, ender4 said: Is there actually an alternative party for Palestinians to support? Or is it basically a one party state where the option is support Hamas or support nobody. There used to be and Hamas did win a legitimate democratic election - but it's probably fair to say that the Hamas we see today isn't the Hamas that campaigned for votes then and part of that change was them deciding that there shouldn't be any more democratic elections and doing away with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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