Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[Keyblade]

3 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

tbf, thats all wars over the last.......50 years?

I don't think there was any media as ubiquitous as the internet though. Even TV had some barriers in terms of mass-reach.

[omariqy]

12 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

tbf, thats all wars over the last.......50 years?

To an extent but I think in Gaza I am grateful for it. I dread to think the even more heinous war crimes that Israel would have committed. 

[VILLAMARV]

11 hours ago, magnkarl said:

How do you think the British army would fight an enemy that has done and is doing what Hamas is doing? 

I'll go with, watch the Americans round up all the men and boys and cart them off to prisons, outsource some of the torture to Jordan and transport the US torture victims around the world for them while teaming up with Israeli secret services to create computer viruses so the enemies technology doesn't work?

[DJBOB]

With the IDF completing the encirclement of northern Gaza and the takeover of the Shifa hospital, it has probably completed the first objective of cutting off and isolating Gaza north of Wadi Gaza. Their goal is probably to limit any reinforcement of Hamas within this encirclement and continue their operation.

Hamas is intent to continue protracting this conflict for as long as possible, increasing international pressure on Israel and increasing the risk of a multi-front war as Iranian backed militias continue their attacks on US bases as well as Israel from the Golan Heights and West Bank front. I don't think Israel is in a great position here unless they have intelligence indicating Hamas leadership is somewhere to be found within this area or if it is their objective to re-occupy Gaza north of the Wadi Gaza. If they do so, the pressure will remain high and the urban insurgency will be ugly. From the beginning, it was a trap, and the IDF position will only continue to degrade.

I think of worry is that the IS of Iraq has continued their attacks on US positions in Iraq. So far, US response has been minimal and the Biden administration seems intent on not escalating the situation further. But all it would take is a casualty event on a US base to increase the political pressure from the right wing on Biden. Similar to what Hamas did with Israel, the IS are eager to draw US back into this losing war as well.

[magnkarl]

It appears that the raid on Al-Shifa has gone through without too much collateral, all buildings are still standing and haven't been bombed according to Maxar, and the IDF have been able to communicate directly with the hospital staff rather than Hamas, and even pro-Palestinian sources seem to indicate that a lot of the reactions before the action came from Hamas-propagandists. The call in the below clip could obviously be fake, but it appears that both fuel and medical kit has been delivered to the hospital, and a lot of injured patients have been evacuated to military hospitals.

I'm using an Indian source on this, as they seem to like to preach neutrality. 

BBC have also had to walk back allegations that IDF were shooting at medical staff and Arabic speakers within the hospital, and quoted a report from Reuters saying 'IDF included medical staff and Arabic speakers in the raid on Al-Shifa', and somehow managed to change it into something more click-batey, feels a lot less like a mistake and rather an attempt to change the facts.

Edited November 16, 2023 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

17 hours ago, omariqy said:

 

Worth noting that this lady is getting a lot of flak internally in the UN too. She's clearly not up to date or impartial when it comes to who's allowed to defend themselves from big incursions. Maybe she should ask her colleagues what other countries have done to terror-groups, be that India, Pakistan, Ghana, NATO, Turkey etc. She's clearly operating with a set of principles from before big terrorist organisations were a thing, as this would disqualify even the IRA or Unionists from military reprisal.

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

I'm using an Indian source on this, as they seem to like to preach neutrality.

Not sniping (much) but as you've made the case quite strongly for using impeccable sources, it's worth noting that India chose a side in this conflict quite early on. And they buy 2 Billion squids worth of arms from Israel yearly. Not sure their regime is so committed to press neutrality either...

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Not sniping (much) but as you've made the case quite strongly for using impeccable sources, it's worth noting that India chose a side in this conflict quite early on. And they buy 2 Billion squids worth of arms from Israel yearly. Not sure their regime is so committed to press neutrality either...

It was also the first non-Arab state to recognise PLO as a government of the Palestinian people. Swings and roundabouts.

The point was that compared to U.K and the U.S they're nowhere near as supportive of Israel.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

It was also the first non-Arab state to recognise PLO as a government of the Palestinian people. Swings and roundabouts.

The point was that compared to U.K and the U.S they're nowhere near as supportive of Israel.

https://thediplomat.com/2023/11/india-once-was-a-strong-ally-of-palestine-what-changed/

In 1947, India voted against the partition of Palestine at the United Nations General Assembly. India was the first non‐Arab state to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in 1974. India was also one of the first countries to recognize the State of Palestine in 1988.

All these historical records attest to India’s long-standing diplomatic ties with Palestine being on great terms. On the other hand, while India recognized the creation of Israel in 1950, they did not establish diplomatic relations until 1992, and previous Indian governments mostly kept dealings with Israel quiet.

Fast forward to October 27, 2023. This same India was among the countries that did not back a U.N. resolution calling for a “humanitarian truce” in Gaza, instead choosing to abstain.

Just like that, India is clearly taking a side in the ongoing Gaza war. That’s the side of Israel, from whom India now buys about $2 billion worth of arms every year, making up over 30 percent of Israel’s total exports of armaments.

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, Jareth said:

https://thediplomat.com/2023/11/india-once-was-a-strong-ally-of-palestine-what-changed/

In 1947, India voted against the partition of Palestine at the United Nations General Assembly. India was the first non‐Arab state to recognize the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people in 1974. India was also one of the first countries to recognize the State of Palestine in 1988.

All these historical records attest to India’s long-standing diplomatic ties with Palestine being on great terms. On the other hand, while India recognized the creation of Israel in 1950, they did not establish diplomatic relations until 1992, and previous Indian governments mostly kept dealings with Israel quiet.

Fast forward to October 27, 2023. This same India was among the countries that did not back a U.N. resolution calling for a “humanitarian truce” in Gaza, instead choosing to abstain.

Just like that, India is clearly taking a side in the ongoing Gaza war. That’s the side of Israel, from whom India now buys about $2 billion worth of arms every year, making up over 30 percent of Israel’s total exports of armaments.

India abstains on pretty much everything except for anti-China motions in the U.N. They want to seem impartial, as I said. Abstaining does that. They give aid to Gaza and Palestine yearly too.

To Israel voting for a truce would mean voting for Palestine and would also remove some of the drive behind India's foreign policy of defending yourself when you are attacked, even by taking land (Kashmir).

Compare buying 2 bn worth of Israeli weapons to giving them 3.3 billion worth of weapons, there's a fairly clear distinction. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

India abstains on pretty much everything except for anti-China motions in the U.N. They want to seem impartial, as I said. Abstaining does that. They give aid to Gaza and Palestine yearly too.

To Israel voting for a truce would mean voting for Palestine and would also remove some of the drive behind India's foreign policy of defending yourself when you are attacked, even by taking land (Kashmir).

Compare buying 2 bn worth of Israeli weapons to giving them 3.3 billion worth of weapons, there's a fairly clear distinction. 

Right wingers gonna right-wing.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/india-pro-israel-narendra-modi-bjp-government

On Friday, India was among the countries that did not back a UN resolution for a “humanitarian truce” in Gaza, instead choosing to abstain.

For many, the immediacy of Modi’s comments and the UN resolution vote symbolises just how significantly the India-Israel relationship has shifted since he came to power in 2014, notably demonstrated by the public bonhomie between the two countries’ prime ministers.

Nicolas Blarel, associate professor of international relations at Leiden University and author of The Evolution of India’s Israel Policy, said: “Modi’s position has been openly supportive of Israel but this is the first time that you had an immediate pro-Israel reaction without a balancing statement that immediately follows it up.”

Israel appeared to take Modi’s statement as unequivocal backing. Speaking to reporters in Delhi last week, Israel’s ambassador, Naor Gilon, thanked the country for “100% support”.

Yet it was not a sentiment restricted only to the upper echelons of Indian government. As Azad Essa, a journalist and author of Hostile Homelands: The New Alliance Between India and Israel, said: “This messaging gave a clear signal to the whole rightwing internet cell in India.”

[omariqy]

Modi is a massive Islamaphobe so will never support Palestine. It’s why so many right wingers support Israel. They see them as doing their job for them. 

[omariqy]

I just saw that an Israeli spokesperson was trying to convince the world that they found a pristine copy of the children’s version of Mein Kampf (in Arabic) in the rubble. They lie so much that no one believes anything they say apart from the US these days. 

[omariqy]

 

[omariqy]

 

[Jareth]

I doubt we're anywhere near the end of this as it stands. However, what should happen next? Personally I'd like to see the UN come in. As with Israel's creation, other actors are necessary to create this new Palestinian state - that seems historically fair - after mass suffering comes reinvention. With the UN guaranteeing security, Hamas extinquished (the only good thing about Israel's bludgeoning), world/Qatari money can come in and be used to rebuild what is quite a small strip of land, with a beautiful sea-facing area. It could be an incredible success story. 

[omariqy]

another mosque targeted and another 60 innocent people killed.

[omariqy]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

I doubt we're anywhere near the end of this as it stands. However, what should happen next? Personally I'd like to see the UN come in. As with Israel's creation, other actors are necessary to create this new Palestinian state - that seems historically fair - after mass suffering comes reinvention. With the UN guaranteeing security, Hamas extinquished (the only good thing about Israel's bludgeoning), world/Qatari money can come in and be used to rebuild what is quite a small strip of land, with a beautiful sea-facing area. It could be an incredible success story. 

Israel needs to let the people return as well. 

[Jareth]

Just now, omariqy said:

Israel needs to let the people return as well. 

Israel wouldn't need to be involved at all, unless they wanted to invest in the place. With no blockade, and temporary UN governance, that sea is open. 

[omariqy]

The most moral army in the world. It’s no surprise when you are indoctrinated to see the other side as less than human then things like this happen.