Jareth Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 Just now, blandy said: Without reasoned engagement war crimes happen daily. War crimes are happening for much more visceral reasons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 1 minute ago, Jareth said: War crimes are happening for much more visceral reasons True, but what stops them happening? Talking and engagement is the only thing that can stop them. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 (edited) 18 minutes ago, blandy said: No. There is none. “Inherent” is meaningless in the context of a nation. If you think otherwise, please explain why So maybe we both think that there is not inherent right for a country to exist but you clearly can get the vibe that people in this forum disagree. When i said in previous comments that if US came and force the deal with a condition that if Palestine after free elections after removing of settlements goes back to terrorism Arab countries takes the Palestinians to themselves. Do you see how much of the performative outrage i got after that comment?? They clearly think that Palestinians have inherent right into that land and Palestine have inherent right to exist. If you remove Palestines right to fail as a country then you are saying that Palestine have the inherent right to exist no matter what. Terroristic or genocidal they cant fail and they cant fail on any level that they would cease to exist. Thats what people are saying in this forum. Edited November 5, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 1 minute ago, blandy said: True, but what stops them happening? Talking and engagement is the only thing that can stop them. Corbyn got slated for less 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted November 5, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted November 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, blandy said: Charming. May I suggest a snickers is in order. Getting called out for condemning and blaming someone that states he agrees with ethnic cleansing is not where I expected to be. But hey, I’m sorry and in future I’ll be more mindful of the thoughts and feelings of people that are ok with ethnic cleansing. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: Corbyn got slated for less We need a new version of Godwin's Law 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: So maybe we both think that there is not inherent right for a country to exist but you clearly can get the vibe that people in this forum disagree. When i said in previous comments that if US came and force the deal with a condition that if Palestine after free elections after removing of settlements goes back to terrorism Arab countries takes the Palestinians to themselves. Do you see how much of the performative outrage i got after that comment?? They clearly think that Palestinians have inherent right into that land and Palestine have inherent right to exist. If you remove Palestines right to fail as a country then you are saying that Palestine have the inherent right to exist no matter what. Terroristic or genocidal they cant fail and they cant fail on any level that they would cease to exist. Thats what people are saying in this forum. Do you believe in a two state solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 1 minute ago, Tumblerseven said: If you remove Palestines right to fail as a country then you are saying that Palestine have the inherent right to exist no matter what. Terroristic or genocidal they cant fail and they cant fail on any level that they would cease to exist. Thats what people are saying in this forum. My definition of a country, whether Israel or anywhere else is basically a region of land and the people and flora and fauna that live within that region. A country cannot “fail”. It can have problems, it can have suffering it can have improvements, it can have some terrorists within it, it can have a good government or a bad one, but the country as a whole cannot “fail”. I don’t even know what that means in terms of ultimate consequences. Yes it can mean short life expectancy or environmental damage or inability to feed itself, or terrible relationships with neighbours, but all of those things are not “the end”, they are transitory phases. Right now, Israel is governed by a crook and Half of Palestine is no longer governed at all, or because of the bombing is ungovernable in any practical sense, due to the actions of Hamas and Israel. The 2.4 million people in the midst of the bombing are suffering an utterly appalling situation. But those people and that place has an absolute right to live, to exist, to have peace and to have a future. The vile behaviour of Hamas and of the Israeli government does not negate that right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolteExile Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Mic09 said: Why do they? And why should they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 13 minutes ago, bickster said: We need a new version of Godwin's Law That you would countenance associating Corbyn with Hitler is a bit dramatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Getting called out for condemning and blaming someone that states he agrees with ethnic cleansing is not where I expected to be. But hey, I’m sorry and in future I’ll be more mindful of the thoughts and feelings of people that are ok with ethnic cleansing. That’s not what I’m calling out, Chris. Their apparent acceptance in an internet post, of ethnic cleansing is shocking. That’s not the same as them being personally responsible for Hamas murders and kidnappings. The use of holocaust terminology in relation to Israel or its cheerleaders or supporters is also suboptimal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 Just now, Jareth said: That you would countenance associating Corbyn with Hitler is a bit dramatic I think you completely missed the point. He isn’t relevant to this topic in the context you used. You want to talk about Corbyn, do it in a relevant topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolteExile Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 57 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: Yup Germans in WW2 had this drinkable chemical substance colorless tasteless they called it Wasser. You cant drink Wasser ever its not acceptable... ever. Thats the level of engagement im getting amazing. This dude has a very similar posting style to that pro Russian bot (McKay?) who was smearing his shitty arse all over the Russia thread. Same whattaboutism, same appalling English. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 Just now, bickster said: I think you completely missed the point. He isn’t relevant to this topic in the context you used. You want to talk about Corbyn, do it in a relevant topic He has been mentioned here frequently and sardonically as a friend of Hamas - I think you yourself referenced that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: He has been mentioned here frequently and sardonically as a friend of Hamas - I think you yourself referenced that See I'd much rather people took the hint to keep on topic, it seems pointless though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 (edited) 23 minutes ago, blandy said: My definition of a country, whether Israel or anywhere else is basically a region of land and the people and flora and fauna that live within that region. A country cannot “fail”. It can have problems, it can have suffering it can have improvements, it can have some terrorists within it, it can have a good government or a bad one, but the country as a whole cannot “fail”. I don’t even know what that means in terms of ultimate consequences. Yes it can mean short life expectancy or environmental damage or inability to feed itself, or terrible relationships with neighbours, but all of those things are not “the end”, they are transitory phases. Right now, Israel is governed by a crook and Half of Palestine is no longer governed at all, or because of the bombing is ungovernable in any practical sense, due to the actions of Hamas and Israel. The 2.4 million people in the midst of the bombing are suffering an utterly appalling situation. But those people and that place has an absolute right to live, to exist, to have peace and to have a future. The vile behaviour of Hamas and of the Israeli government does not negate that right. I absolutely disagree i think systems can fail like capitalism or socialism or authoritarianism or democracy and countries who implement those bad systems can fail to. Failing=means you cease to exist as a country or system by influence of the outside world. Would you agree that if Palestine can do nothing more than just democratically elect terrorist elements into their government they are failing as a country and population? So i think i can give you a scenario where you would say population cleansing might be reasonable. You live in a democracy i Thanos snap 30% of your countries population into radicalism racism authoritarianism. They dont believe in democracy or your state and they terorising the 70% of liberal population. What do you think your country should do? options: 1. cleanse the hostile population cleansing trying to deport them from your home is better than killing them 2. kill them. killing them is worse than cleansing. 3.Give up democracy it would be just sad. so can you engage with this? Edited November 5, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2023 25 minutes ago, Jareth said: Corbyn got slated for less He didn’t really. To his credit he has a long and deep seated sympathy for the fate of the Palestinians. He held many meetings, rallies and talking shops with various shades of Palestinian groups and representatives, including some absolute whoppers. Maybe he felt he needed to give them or their voices a platform, maybe he wanted to demonstrate his solidarity with them, or their cause. I’m rather less sure he did any of it, or anything to practically address the overall situation in Israel and Palestine. As a constituency MP he had, true, very little influence in that regard in the big scheme of things. But he didn’t use what little he had to talk with the Israelis, to be a go between, to bring people together internationally. It seemed very one dimensional and one sided. That’s fine for a local MP, perhaps. I think part of the bigger problem is that outside of the region, none of the people who could have genuine impact were they to make the effort, have actually made any effort for the last 20 years(ish). They’ve just left the two sides to continue their feuds. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 12 minutes ago, blandy said: That’s not what I’m calling out, Chris. Their apparent acceptance in an internet post, of ethnic cleansing is shocking. That’s not the same as them being personally responsible for Hamas murders and kidnappings. The use of holocaust terminology in relation to Israel or its cheerleaders or supporters is also suboptimal ‘apparent acceptance’? Really? well it’s a strong disagree here, that’s absolutely specifically what leads to and allows the murders of the last 4 weeks and it needs to be confronted but yeah, I’ll go and paint a wall for an hour, wouldn’t want to be seen as the guy that spoiled the debate on ethnic cleansing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 What a shit show of a thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted November 5, 2023 Share Posted November 5, 2023 2 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: You live in a democracy i Thanos snap 30% of your countries population into radicalism racism authoritarianism. They dont believe in democracy or your state and they terorising the 70% of liberal population. What do you think your country should do? options: Well obviously they should go back in time and recover the infinity stone. Duh! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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