Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[one_ian_taylor]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

 

I’m sceptical on that, have to be honest.

 

The attack, or attacks  that caused that damage won't have been deemed individually  newsworthy in most places - in a similar fashion to the way that a lot of illegal settler activity spread out over many years  and done in a way that erodes  the viability  of a functioning  Palestinian state isn't - but a single massive explosion where the loss of civilian life is likely to be significant and predictable would be. It would be harder to maintain  the claim of aiming  to avoid loss of civilian life

Edited October 27, 2023 by one_ian_taylor

[OutByEaster?]

10 minutes ago, blandy said:

No, not that, in the slightest.

We are being told, through social media, propaganda and through the MSM, a load of stuff which is largely unverifiable, and some which is extremely likely to be false. This is happening from both sides and more. It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask where the figure of 7000 came from, does it? I mean I think there's almost no media people in Gaza, so "reports" of casualties, which are clearly going to be high, given the images of devastation and destruction Israel has wreaked are likely to be based on ...what? approximations? messages or phone calls from inside Gaza to the UN or WHO outside Gaza, or relayed to them via Doctors phoning or texting or messaging contacts outside who then pass on the figures?

I bet no one knows how many people have actually been killed, or whether they're fighters, or mostly innocents. We do know there's terrible death and suffering in large quantity.

As people have posted - there's a tendency for something to get floated, to pop out of somewhere and then it takes a hold as "fact" in our media and understanding, when it's actually unverified. Israel killed 500 in a hospital - half way round the world, then Israel says "it was them, not us" and then someone else says (as not far above these posts) actually, the Israel "explanation" is erroneous too...

I think it's fair to put some sort of faith in the WHO.

 

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

No, not that, in the slightest.

We are being told, through social media, propaganda and through the MSM, a load of stuff which is largely unverifiable, and some which is extremely likely to be false. This is happening from both sides and more. It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask where the figure of 7000 came from, does it? I mean I think there's almost no media people in Gaza, so "reports" of casualties, which are clearly going to be high, given the images of devastation and destruction Israel has wreaked are likely to be based on ...what? approximations? messages or phone calls from inside Gaza to the UN or WHO outside Gaza, or relayed to them via Doctors phoning or texting or messaging contacts outside who then pass on the figures?

I bet no one knows how many people have actually been killed, or whether they're fighters, or mostly innocents. We do know there's terrible death and suffering in large quantity.

As people have posted - there's a tendency for something to get floated, to pop out of somewhere and then it takes a hold as "fact" in our media and understanding, when it's actually unverified. Israel killed 500 in a hospital - half way round the world, then Israel says "it was them, not us" and then someone else says (as not far above these posts) actually, the Israel "explanation" is erroneous too...

And this matters because...?

Do we deny that dropping thousands of bombs on a place that is the third most highly populated on the planet is going to kill lots of people? Even if you told them to clear out - and then bombed the places you told them to clear out to anyway. We've seen the bodies - there's a lot of dead people - so why quibble the number? Does it seem outrageous an estimation? I don't think it does. Apparently the WHO doesn't either, perhaps they hate Israel too.

But if we are to say the number matters, what level of casualties is acceptable for Israeli retribution? What percentage of innocents are acceptable in that number? Or do we argue none of them are innocents? Is everyone fair game? Is 1 really a tragedy? Really? Really?

Can we question the numbers for other tragedies? Can we question the figures Israel put out for the massacre that started this round? Or do we take a trustworthy nation like Israel's word? I note we didn't have this question when it happened so perhaps there's something special about dead Palestinians. 

The only reason to quibble a fairly reasonable number, IMO, is to play down the effect of Israel's actions. Which I certainly don't think is the right thing to do - their actions would not be more justified, better, if the figure was halved, quartered...

I'm also reminded in having this discussion that to question numbers in another tragedy, the most horrific tragedy, is deeply, deeply offensive, illegally so in some places.

[DJBOB]

Gaza invasion surely imminent. Increasing in shelling right along the border and data cut off.

Sick watching it - US bombing positions in Syria too. Hard to see how this doesn't escalate.

[blandy]

40 minutes ago, Chindie said:

And this matters because...?

Do we deny that dropping thousands of bombs on a place that is the third most highly populated on the planet is going to kill lots of people? Even if you told them to clear out - and then bombed the places you told them to clear out to anyway. We've seen the bodies - there's a lot of dead people - so why quibble the number? Does it seem outrageous an estimation? I don't think it does. Apparently the WHO doesn't either, perhaps they hate Israel too.

But if we are to say the number matters, what level of casualties is acceptable for Israeli retribution? What percentage of innocents are acceptable in that number? Or do we argue none of them are innocents? Is everyone fair game? Is 1 really a tragedy? Really? Really?

Can we question the numbers for other tragedies? Can we question the figures Israel put out for the massacre that started this round? Or do we take a trustworthy nation like Israel's word? I note we didn't have this question when it happened so perhaps there's something special about dead Palestinians. 

The only reason to quibble a fairly reasonable number, IMO, is to play down the effect of Israel's actions. Which I certainly don't think is the right thing to do - their actions would not be more justified, better, if the figure was halved, quartered...

I'm also reminded in having this discussion that to question numbers in another tragedy, the most horrific tragedy, is deeply, deeply offensive, illegally so in some places.

Barking up the wrong tree.

In response to Scott’s post saying “civillian deaths had been limited to 7000” I asked who said that number, where did it come from, we need to be mindful it’s a propaganda war as well as a bombs war.

Most of your questions I assume aren’t directed at me, because I’ve said much the same thing over the course of this thread

Your last line is pathetic if it’s directed at me or my post. If it’s not directed at me, then it’s just unwise.

[OutByEaster?]

Horrible watching this play out.

Thousands of people will die and there's nothing we can do but sit here and watch it happen.

 

[ender4]

So what will be the plan when the Israeli army cross over into Gaza?

[chrisp65]

Netanyahu and the IDF beginning to lose public support for their long threatened ground invasion, so probably time to piss or get off the pot.

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

Heavy bombing at the moment - it doesn't look particularly targeted - just a bombardment.

All comms in Gaza blocked - one can only hope as many people as possible are in places that they can either be safe or lucky.

 

[Chindie]

11 minutes ago, blandy said:

Barking up the wrong tree.

In response to Scott’s post saying “civillian deaths had been limited to 7000” I asked who said that number, where did it come from, we need to be mindful it’s a propaganda war as well as a bombs war.

Most of your questions I assume aren’t directed at me, because I’ve said much the same thing over the course of this thread

Your last line is pathetic if it’s directed at me or my post. If it’s not directed at me, then it’s just unwise.

Ah ok. So it is we just can't accept a number, which doesn't does matter.

Laughable.

[OutByEaster?]

The way it looks right now, with massive indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, I have a feeling that 7,000 will seem a much smaller number in the morning.

 

[Chindie]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The way it looks right now, with massive indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, I have a feeling that 7,000 will seem a much smaller number in the morning.

 

I wouldn't worry. The numbers are completely unverifiable and anyway they don't matter.

[blandy]

11 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Ah ok. So it is we just can't accept a number, which doesn't does matter.

Laughable.

You really have got the completely wrong end of the stick.

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, OutByEaster? said:

The way it looks right now, with massive indiscriminate bombing of civilian areas, I have a feeling that 7,000 will seem a much smaller number in the morning.

 

 

The 7,000 including 2,000 children can only possibly be an estimate. An audited figure will never be available, there will be a lot of children and grandparents that have had their heads crushed between the collapsed floors of apartment blocks and may never be found again. 

So any authorities will have to take a view on who is missing separated from family, and who has been dead for 3 weeks and essentially gone. 

There will be no system no authority able to quickly reunite separated children with surviving parents, a million people on the move there are going to be a fair few orphans and split up families with next to no chance of a speedy reunion.

Hopefully this sweet revenge massacre will be the solution some are looking for and cause the Palestinians to never ever again question their lot and their place. 

[magnkarl]

You know you’re struggling with your reasoning when all your arguments ends with mentioning Hitler or the Holocaust, no matter how enraged you are at Israel’s clear breaches of humanitarian law. Israel wasn’t even a country when the holocaust happened.

I might start questioning the Armenian-Assyrian genocide in relation to anything a Christian nation (USA, Russia, Ukraine, generally NATO, Columbia, Venezuela) does, you know, just cause the Armenians and Assyrisns were majority Christians. That way I feel I get my point across.

Edited October 27, 2023 by magnkarl

[Chindie]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

You really have got the completely wrong end of the stick.

I'm sure I have, I'm just too stupid to understand how.

From my perspective, you're saying you don't believe the casualty numbers given for Palestinians, because you can't count them and have to rely on third parties who you don't trust. And even if they are right they might all be Hamas so the numbers are good. And because that sounds quite bad you also don't trust the Israelis, but didn't bring that up when the massacre happened and the numbers were flaunted there. And because overall it sounds bad to doubt death tolls it's framed in the concept that any deaths are bad, but with the distinct undertone that clearly you don't really mean that, and in actuality you think the Palestinian death toll is being inflated for propaganda purposes, because otherwise why even raise the point that the number is wrong and it's propaganda?

For my money, is the number being used for propaganda? Absolutely. Is it likely particularly inaccurate or inflated? I doubt it. I'm surprised it's not higher. And even if it was by some chance massively inflated, I don't think it changes anything. Its still going to be a lot of dead people, and even if the Israelis are brilliantly good at killing Hamas, they're still wracking up dead innocents, so whether it's 50 or 5000 it's **** wrong.

[Keyblade]

I agree that we're not sure of the veracity of the exact figure, given the situation on the ground and who's reporting etc. But it's all elementary imo, it's clearly a lot of people. Even if the real number was half the reported it'd still be obscene, and it's only going to climb.

[blandy]

37 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I'm sure I have, I'm just too stupid to understand how.

From my perspective, you're saying you don't believe the casualty numbers given for Palestinians, because you can't count them and have to rely on third parties who you don't trust. And even if they are right they might all be Hamas so the numbers are good. And because that sounds quite bad you also don't trust the Israelis, but didn't bring that up when the massacre happened and the numbers were flaunted there. And because overall it sounds bad to doubt death tolls it's framed in the concept that any deaths are bad, but with the distinct undertone that clearly you don't really mean that, and in actuality you think the Palestinian death toll is being inflated for propaganda purposes, because otherwise why even raise the point that the number is wrong and it's propaganda?

For my money, is the number being used for propaganda? Absolutely. Is it likely particularly inaccurate or inflated? I doubt it. I'm surprised it's not higher. And even if it was by some chance massively inflated, I don't think it changes anything. Its still going to be a lot of dead people, and even if the Israelis are brilliantly good at killing Hamas, they're still wracking up dead innocents, so whether it's 50 or 5000 it's **** wrong.

That’s not it, but thanks for taking time to write that. In return I’ll try and explain better where I’m coming from.

1. Scott posted that (some unstated entity had said) 7000 civilians were killed. I expressed both curiosity (where did those numbers come from) and scepticism as to how anyone could know the number accurately, while also clearly saying that clearly from the images of the place a great number of people would have been killed. I expressed and have scepticism around both sides downplaying the harm they caused and perhaps exaggerating the harm the other side caused, or even who caused it. There’s a ton of propaganda out there. It’s hard to try and find the truth.  I said I don’t believe Israel and I don’t believe Hamas.

What irked me is that you took scepticism about where numbers came from, or whether they were entirely accurate as somehow suggesting that lives didn’t matter, (whether Palestinian or Israeli). I mean that’s just ludicrous, especially given how often I’ve posted ( not that you’re obliged to have read any of it) that what Israel is doing is abhorrent and both sides need to stop. I just despair at the utter futility and torment of all the killing, no good will come of it. Israel will not eliminate Hamas by bombing or invading Gaza. It’s bloodlust and revenge.

So, maybe in asking for detail, sources and facts I appear “cold”, but don’t mix that with not wanting the killing and torment and maiming and collective punishment and terrorism in the Middle East to stop. Israel has an ogre of a government and Palestine has a sick parasite inside it.

[YLN]

I wish I thought Israel were the good guys here and Palestine was full of terrorists. It would make all of this a lot easier to watch, powerless to make it stop.

I can see why if you have that viewpoint you're probably very keen to protect it for yourself through all kinds of cognitive dissonance.

[bobzy]

No comms, food, water or electricity but plenty of bombs.

Nice way to treat civilians.