Israel, Palestine and Iran (and Lebanon)

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Now you're onto this binary thinking again.

a) Israel's right wing governemt calls most criticism of the state AS.

b) Since Israel does so all claims of AS is bullshit to many anti-Israel folks.

You are aware that there's several cases in between those two right? 

You've made that binary - it's not just Israel who have weaponised AS

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

You've made that binary - it's not just Israel who have weaponised AS

Which of the other actors in terms of this topic have?

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Which of the other actors in terms of this topic have?

I'm not talking about in terms of this topic - I'm talking about the weaponisation of AS by various actors in the UK over the last few years - in response to the introduction of the subject of weaponising AS into this thread. Said actors - right wing press including the Jewish Chronicle so very quick to whip up fear to suit its aims, right side of Labour, most of the Tories...

[blandy]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

I'm not talking about in terms of this topic - I'm talking about the weaponisation of AS by various actors in the UK over the last few years - in response to the introduction of the subject of weaponising AS into this thread. Said actors - right wing press including the Jewish Chronicle so very quick to whip up fear to suit its aims, right side of Labour, most of the Tories...

Wrong thread, dude.

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Wrong thread, dude.

Why is it unrelated to the UK? I've seen pro-Israel spokespeople do the media rounds - one I saw I think Mark Regev, accused UK trade unions, universities and the FA of antisemitic behaviour - this is the same target of such accusations as have been levelled by those weaponising AS in the UK for years - it's more of the same. 

[blandy]

Just now, Jareth said:

Why is it unrelated to the UK? I've seen pro-Israel spokespeople do the media rounds - one I saw I think Mark Regev, accused UK trade unions, universities and the FA of antisemitic behaviour - this is the same target of such accusations as have been levelled by those weaponising AS in the UK for years - it's more of the same. 

This thread is for Iran, Palestine and Israel. It’s not the anti-semitism thread, not uk politics. Mark Regev is an Israel spokesman afaik, so fits into @magnkarl’s category.

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

This thread is for Iran, Palestine and Israel. It’s not the anti-semitism thread, not uk politics. Mark Regev is an Israel spokesman afaik, so fits into @magnkarl’s category.

Hey I've no problem wanging on and boring people in other threads much to anyone's delight. I'll get me coat. 

[LondonLax]

2 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

Other users have covered most of it, but one of the big points I’ve not seen raised is that Iran are a predominantly Shia Muslim country whereas most of the Middle East is Sunni (including the Palestinians), which is why they’re generally quite isolated in the region beyond their own proxies.

The Arab / Persian rivalry goes back a long way. 

[Wainy316]

 

[chrisp65]

5 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Just wondering on your thoughts here:

I appreciate geopolitics is often a game of informed guesswork (who knows what long term interests and deals nations might have between each other) but don't you think that if Israel was in fact making progress to build economic relations with neighbouring arab states, they would keep their appearances as a little more 'calm'? I.e., retaliate against Hamas, but keep appearances up to seem a bit more friendly to the wider world audience? Maybe keep Netanyahu and the army from making some of the comments they made during the last 2 weeks? 

A scorched earth tactic against an enemy is not a great policy if the next day they are looking to build some new international relations?  

It’s calm that’s sadly lacking.

It must be spectacularly difficult to react in a planned way when there is an atrocity like October 7th. But for me, Israel has fallen in to a trap here. They think they can shout 9/11 and the free world will finally realise this is the existential end game. But after 3 weeks of bombing other leaders, even little Rishi, are beginning to qualify their support so it excludes blatant war crimes.

Just see the response directly below your question to see the hot headed reaction. It doesn’t appear a million miles off the level of strategic thinking within the Israeli government. Which is fine for off topic on a football forum, but when you have a serious U.S. funded war machine at your command, maybe not so fine.

Want an irrelevant personal view? Well you’re getting one. I’d have killed every last **** involved in any way in that Hamas attack, the guys filming their murders, the financiers, the strategists. I wouldn’t have done it by killing 2,000 innocent children blown up or crushed by concrete, or slowly dying in an incubator for lack of blockaded medicine or even water and thus stupidly allowing a debate on who is the worst murderer. 

 

[DJBOB]

6 hours ago, Mic09 said:

Just wondering on your thoughts here:

I appreciate geopolitics is often a game of informed guesswork (who knows what long term interests and deals nations might have between each other) but don't you think that if Israel was in fact making progress to build economic relations with neighbouring arab states, they would keep their appearances as a little more 'calm'? I.e., retaliate against Hamas, but keep appearances up to seem a bit more friendly to the wider world audience? Maybe keep Netanyahu and the army from making some of the comments they made during the last 2 weeks? 

A scorched earth tactic against an enemy is not a great policy if the next day they are looking to build some new international relations?  

There are going to be very few reactions to the over the top attacks on October 7 besides a heavy handed retaliation. No matter what geopolitics come into play, the attacks were meant to provoke this exact reaction.

5 hours ago, Thug said:

Like you say, politics is very complex at the best of times.  There are some very powerful entities that need to be kept happy.  Also, there are often opportunities that were thought impossible, which become viable after certain events.

A lot of conspiracy theories, without any back up evidence at all.  I’ve seen theories floating about suggesting the attack was kind of ‘allowed’ to happen.  Lots of questions about why it took as long as it did for the response, how an impenetrable wall suddenly got penetrated with such ease etc. Others suggesting that someone else from within collaborated.

I don’t believe these as I can’t understand how this would benefit Netanyahu in the slightest.  He was walking a tight rope already, and it seems pretty much like he’ll be gone as soon as things settle.

I think Hamas got ‘lucky’.  All the stars aligned and the tragedy unfolded.  And that invoked a furious response from Israel because they can’t be seen to be weak - to prevent any recurrence.

 

The similarities to other successful attacks were all there. The Israeli government was busy with inner conflict with many reported issues between IDF command and Netanyahu. Hamas had bided their time for almost 2 years, reaching a low in both rhetoric and actual attacks. At the same time, increased violence and demonstrations in the West Bank left the southern area light in security forces. The only 'conspiracy' are the obvious ones - that Hamas had extensive training, support, and intel that they did not come up with on their own.

That they held a festival just a few km from the border was a sign of both the incorrect assessment (there was little danger) and a combination of Israeli indifference and Hamas subterfuge.

[OutByEaster?]

With the obvious conflict in Gaza, tensions along many of its borders and the attacks in the West Bank, how is the conflict and Israeli anger affecting the 2 million Arab people that live within Israel?

i know that there are existing disparities and it's not the most comfortable relationship at the best of times, but I've seen nothing reported that suggests any new reaction. I'd have thought that tensions would certainly be high between Arab and Israeli people living next to each other in Israel right now - is there a little something hopeful to hang onto in the lack of a reaction within those communities?

[Mr_Dogg]

8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

With the obvious conflict in Gaza, tensions along many of its borders and the attacks in the West Bank, how is the conflict and Israeli anger affecting the 2 million Arab people that live within Israel?

i know that there are existing disparities and it's not the most comfortable relationship at the best of times, but I've seen nothing reported that suggests any new reaction. I'd have thought that tensions would certainly be high between Arab and Israeli people living next to each other in Israel right now - is there a little something hopeful to hang onto in the lack of a reaction within those communities?

The majority of Arabs in Israel are Palestinian.

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, Mr_Dogg said:

The majority of Arabs in Israel are Palestinian.

Exactly, which is why I'm quite surprised we haven't heard anything in terms of difficulties between Israeli-Palestinians and Israeli-Jews within Israel itself. Given the levels of anger which are quite obvious (even within this thread) it must surely be really difficult for these people to be working next to each other every day right now?

 

[Mr_Dogg]

2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Exactly, which is why I'm quite surprised we haven't heard anything in terms of difficulties between Israeli-Palestinians and Israeli-Jews within Israel itself. Given the levels of anger which are quite obvious (even within this thread) it must surely be really difficult for these people to be working next to each other every day right now?

 

They're not working next to each other, that would suggest equality.

[Chindie]

I would imagine living and working in a society where you are literally a second class citizen you keep your head down.

[OutByEaster?]

6 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said:

They're not working next to each other, that would suggest equality.

They do though - and technically have the same legal rights (although there's a whole lot of wriggle in the detail) - there are shared cities and lots of industries where Israelis from all cultures work together and mix.

 

[bannedfromHandV]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

With the obvious conflict in Gaza, tensions along many of its borders and the attacks in the West Bank, how is the conflict and Israeli anger affecting the 2 million Arab people that live within Israel?

i know that there are existing disparities and it's not the most comfortable relationship at the best of times, but I've seen nothing reported that suggests any new reaction. I'd have thought that tensions would certainly be high between Arab and Israeli people living next to each other in Israel right now - is there a little something hopeful to hang onto in the lack of a reaction within those communities?

Is it not just fear? It’s not like they can go out and have a ‘peaceful’ march, they’ll get shot, en masse.

[OutByEaster?]

3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Is it not just fear? It’s not like they can go out and have a ‘peaceful’ march, they’ll get shot, en masse.

Both sides aren't scared though surely - given that there have been 130 killings in the West Bank, I'm pleasantly surprised that there haven't been attacks on Israeli Arabs within Israel too - and I'm perhaps naively clinging to the idea that's a positive for the idea that people can live together.

 

[a-k]

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

I would imagine living and working in a society where you are literally a second class citizen you keep your head down.

In what world are they second class citizens? They hold equal rights and are fully integrated into society. Never mind the fact they enjoy more freedom of life choices in Israel than they would in Gaza or the West Bank...