pas5898 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 If the military capabilities were swapped - Israel would have ceased to exist a long time ago. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 13, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2023 Just now, pas5898 said: If the military capabilities were swapped - Israel would have ceased to exist a long time ago. But what's the relevancy at all? It's like saying 'if ISIS and the US swapped military capabilities, the US would have ceased to exist a long time ago' 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: But what's the relevancy at all? It's like saying 'if ISIS and the US swapped military capabilities, the US would have ceased to exist a long time ago' If Dagenham & Redbridge had the financial backing of Man City they would have won the CL a long time ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted October 13, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2023 13 minutes ago, UpTheVilla26 said: I couldn't imagine a group of terrorists from the UK wading into France, indiscriminately killing people then Biden coming out and praising their actions, it's absolutely mental but basically what has happened. Perhaps just imagine Vietnam and episodes such as the My Lai massacre where US troops killed between 400 and 500 villagers including the elderly, women and children with many women and children raped and mutilated. The US had warned villagers to leave so therefore presumed everyone still there would be hardcore Viet Cong sympathisers. The villagers didnt know anything about any warning, and it was market day. The first US investigation found no massacre, they reported that about 20 villagers were inadvertently killed caught in gunfire between the uS and communists. Later investigations found that all the claims of massacre, torture, rape and mutilation were true. In Max Hastings book Vietnam, he describes another Vietna, scandal where one US unit had a daily competition for a bottle of whisky. Who could bring back the most heads. Some complained that the bulk of carrying heads was slowing them down. So the rules of the game were changed and they were allowed to just bring back pairs of ears. This is just to illustrate that horrific things happen and we can’t simply other or dehumanise those carrying out these crimes. It isn’t some weird thing that could only happen in this one weird place where they aren’t like us. Nazi Germany should be proof enough of that. Or the stories from Abu Ghraib prison. This isn’t an excuse or apologist or whataboutism. That we can’t imagine such a scene close to where we live, is simply a reflection of how peaceful it has been for the last 75 years where we live. Other people have not been raised and conditioned in the same environment. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pas5898 Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: But what's the relevancy at all? It's like saying 'if ISIS and the US swapped military capabilities, the US would have ceased to exist a long time ago' Hamas are utterly determined to completely eradicate Israel, and if they had to means to do so they would. It's literally in their manifesto! Fortunately they don't. There will never be a peace deal until Hamas are completely destroyed or they change their ideology. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 13, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2023 6 minutes ago, pas5898 said: Hamas are utterly determined to completely eradicate Israel, and if they had to means to do so they would. It's literally in their manifesto! Fortunately they don't. There will never be a peace deal until Hamas are completely destroyed or they change their ideology. Again, nothing to do with my point. It's a completely irrelevant statement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Grant Shapps, what a joker of a defence minister. I'm so happy it ain't going off here, we would be f****ed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 13, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 13, 2023 47 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: But what's the relevancy at all? It's like saying 'if ISIS and the US swapped military capabilities, the US would have ceased to exist a long time ago' There was an Israeli politician, Golda Meir, who said (back in the day) "If the Arabs put down their guns there would be no more fighting. If the Israelis put down theirs there would be no more Israel." Things have got worse since then and it’s no longer true in my view, but it’s still embedded in the Israel mindset and in their politicians, who regularly say the same thing. And it’s still embedded in the mindset of quite a lot of Israel’s friends in the west. The relevance is that it is the context of a lot of the attitudes of one side of this horrible situation. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 8 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: Perhaps it's more of a hollow man on reflection. either way you've constructed a fallacious argument here. An extreme hypothetical scenario with an invented response to it from a vague group. Where have people said this? especially the bit about it not mattering Firstly, personally I'll reserve any comment or judgement on specific events until there's some verification. Secondly, and I accept this is just my personal view, but the thing I find distasteful is playing one upmanship with people's trauma. I accept in a court of Law for sentencing purposes we have harsher sentences for 'worse' crimes but I find it hard to understand the metrics of what you call moral calculus. How does one equate (assuming it's all happened as reported for arguments sake) the grotesque actions of Hamas this week, on top of all the other grotesque actions of Hamas and all the other atrocities committed down the years by Palestinian terrorism with the grotesque behaviour of the Isreali Government and military and the daily systematic torture of millions of people over years and years? That's one hell of an algorithm. There's a credible allegation that Hamas beheaded babies - it's been corroborated by some of the non-IDF volunteer organisations on the scene, and repeated by the President of the USA. Clearly it may well still prove to be untrue, but equally there's also a real possibility that it actually happened. The discussions taking place were about what the ramifications of that would be if it had occurred, not necessarily saying it has. However several people were claiming that beheading was no worse than bombing, or just blandly saying that killing is wrong no matter which side does it. I can quote them if you want but you can read them on pages 106-107. The question I asked was "what would the reaction be if Israeli soldiers did this instead of Hamas?" and I really don't see how that's an extreme hypothetical scenario unless you just think Israel is far more morally pure than Hamas is. You'd be utterly outraged if Israeli troops went into Palestinian houses and beheaded babies when they move into Gaza, right? I would be. Because although I appreciate the ultimate outcome is the same, it's a more barbaric act than indirectly killing the same baby by switching off the power to Gaza or by them dropping a bomb on a Hamas team firing rockets into Israel from the building next door (although switching the power off to Gaza is itself a war crime). As you say yourself, the principle of some deaths being worse than others is an established part of our law and ethics system. It's worse to brutally and deliberately kill someone than it is to lose control of your car and kill a pedestrian. It's similarly a big part of the laws of war - e.g. it's morally acceptable to shoot an enemy soldier, but not to shoot that same enemy soldier if they are unarmed and have surrendered. The same applies to the scenarios outlined above. Deliberately torturing and murdering civilians is worse than them ending up dead as part of a legitimate military engagement of enemy forces, and so on. I don't think you need to have a complete set of moral equations in front of you to accept that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Hamas telling Gazans to stay at home in their houses, to not even move internally, is just evil on a whole new scale. They need the people as their living shield, and they're likely hoping that Western pressure on Israel to not bomb indiscriminately will mean they're safe in their tunnels while the people die as a result of their actions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jareth Posted October 13, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted October 13, 2023 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Hamas telling Gazans to stay at home in their houses, to not even move internally, is just evil on a whole new scale. They need the people as their living shield, and they're likely hoping that Western pressure on Israel to not bomb indiscriminately will mean they're safe in their tunnels while the people die as a result of their actions. I’m not sure 1 million people can relocate in 24 hours. Perhaps such unrealistic commands should be condemned. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted October 13, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2023 22 minutes ago, Jareth said: I’m not sure 1 million people can relocate in 24 hours. Perhaps such unrealistic commands should be condemned. There needs to be massive international pressure on this. Is deliberately creating a humanitarian crisis a war crime? Even ignoring physically moving 1m fit and active people in 24 hours what about the infiirm and disabled? Birmingham is about 1m people. My dad is bedbound. Moving him from Hall Green to Sutton Coldfield is an impossibility. You're wife is in the final stages of labour. Get her on her feet for a 10 mile walk? It's preposterous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 The warning is just for western eyes though isn't it. Benny doesn't give a toss, more dead gazan's = less terrorists is his equation. because as so many people are seeking to make amply clear, all palestinians are terrorists so let's just finish off a few hundred thousand people now before they kill another few hundred of us down the line. All agreed? Lovely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 9 minutes ago, sidcow said: There needs to be massive international pressure on this. Is deliberately creating a humanitarian crisis a war crime? Even ignoring physically moving 1m fit and active people in 24 hours what about the infiirm and disabled? Birmingham is about 1m people. My dad is bedbound. Moving him from Hall Green to Sutton Coldfield is an impossibility. You're wife is in the final stages of labour. Get her on her feet for a 10 mile walk? It's preposterous. Well having googled, Gaza is a little bit bigger than Brum. But with twice as many people. They're not serious. And I think they are pretty much on genocidal territory now. But all's well cos Grant Shapps has asked the navy to park a boat nearby. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, sidcow said: There needs to be massive international pressure on this. Is deliberately creating a humanitarian crisis a war crime? Even ignoring physically moving 1m fit and active people in 24 hours what about the infiirm and disabled? Birmingham is about 1m people. My dad is bedbound. Moving him from Hall Green to Sutton Coldfield is an impossibility. You're wife is in the final stages of labour. Get her on her feet for a 10 mile walk? It's preposterous. It is preposterous, but it's actually not very common to warn the local population to move because you're planning to attack it. We didn't do it when we bombed the living crap out of Baghad or Tripoli, in example. Both sides keep falling further into the abyss, and after Oct 7th, bar rocket attacks from Hamas, it's the ordinary civilians of Gaza who are paying for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pongo Waring Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Where can 1 million people flee to? Egypt don't want them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 3 minutes ago, Pongo Waring said: Where can 1 million people flee to? Egypt don't want them No one wants them, especially not their neighbours. They're too busy being outraged at what Israel is doing to actually help the people who are suffering. Egypt could do what they did back when they had control over Gaza and move in to secure it, but it would mean that they'd get even more Palestinians who are treated as second class citizens in Egypt. Lebanese and Egyptian outrage at this attack is hypocritical, to say the least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 14 minutes ago, Pongo Waring said: Where can 1 million people flee to? Egypt don't want them Britain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustibrooks Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 16 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said: While the world is watching. This is internationally banned and a war crime, they cannot be supported after this if true, but will be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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