Knife Violence

[Demitri_C]

16 minutes ago, snowychap said:

So there's a suggestion that it can work in very specific circumstances? That doesn't sound like the basis on which to return to previous levels of capital-wide stop and searches (not saying that you were suggesting this but that sounds like what people more generally are talking about).

It sounds like the crux of the matter is more intelligent policing (which would undoubtedly need better funding).

Statistics aside does your area make you feel safer than it was before? I can only speak of my local area which is London and it is awful Snowy. You would be a brave man to walk round certain areas of North London by yourself.

Its funny that violent crime in my area is becoming more common since they closed near enough all our police stations. who would ahve thought crime would get worse with cuts. Funny that.

Sadiq Khan is also a terrible mayor of London 

 

[PompeyVillan]

3 hours ago, Awol said:

Have a few mates in the Met & they say exactly the same, cuts in police numbers & stop & search being curtailed are the two biggest factors, plus the amount of resources going into non-discretionary counter-terrorism activity. 

I get the argument about racial profiling with stop and search, but when the facts apparently show it’s primarily young black men killing and being killed, you’ve got to ask what’s worse, feeling victimized or being a victim? 

 

I would argue that if the facts do indeed show that black people are more likely to be victims and perpetrators in knife crime then that suggests that we have an institutionalised issue with racism. 

Black people are not more violent than white people, orange people, brown people, whatever. So why are they being driven to this form of extreme violence in the first place? 

Poverty, lacking education and opportunity, cultral intluences and ideology? I dunno. 

I think these sorts of questions can be posed to many countries with regards to many different races. 

Having more police on the streets is certainly going to help. And stop and search may deter the more brazen acts of violence. Policing is only part of any solution in my opinion. 

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

I would argue that if the facts do indeed show that black people are more likely to be victims and perpetrators in knife crime then that suggests that we have an institutionalised issue with racism. 

Black people are not more violent than white people, orange people, brown people, whatever. So why are they being driven to this form of extreme violence in the first place? 

Poverty, lacking education and opportunity, cultral intluences and ideology? I dunno. 

I think these sorts of questions can be posed to many countries with regards to many different races. 

Having more police on the streets is certainly going to help. And stop and search may deter the more brazen acts of violence. Policing is only part of any solution in my opinion. 

There seems to be some suggestions that they are being influenced by rap/urban music videos, the drug life of money women "being hard" is carrying a knife.

 

[snowychap]

15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Statistics aside does your area make you feel safer than it was before? I can only speak of my local area which is London and it is awful Snowy. You would be a brave man to walk round certain areas of North London by yourself.

So we'll ignore the facts and go on just how you feel?

Great.

[Chindie]

I'm sure I've read before that stop and search tends to have the same effect as 'broken windows' policing. It works for a very short time, and then makes things worse, because it pisses people off.

The solution to an increase in violent crime isn't going to be simple. It'll need increased police figures, societal change (trying to resolve the issues leading to people becoming marginalised, drug use and culture, etc etc) and various other small changes to nearly every facet of society. Nowhere has managed to do this, so evidently it's not simple.

People with a palatable stake in life don't waste it because of rap music.

And Snowy obviously has a point in that there is a narrative developing that warps reality. That this thread exists is testament to that. There are dozens of violent crimes all over the country every day. We don't hear about them. London has a string of stabbings, it is suddenly a story, when it may actually just be a statistical anomaly.

[wazzap24]

16 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

There seems to be some suggestions that they are being influenced by rap/urban music videos, the drug life of money women "being hard" is carrying a knife.

 

Not a dig at you Dem in any way, but that's such a load of shite.

Those types of arguments are false flags and distract people from what's really going on.

Being 'influenced by rap music' is up there with 'video games make people violent' and 'gateway drugs' in terms of pure undiluted stupidity. 

 

[Dr_Pangloss]

30 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I'm sure I've read before that stop and search tends to have the same effect as 'broken windows' policing. It works for a very short time, and then makes things worse, because it pisses people off.

The solution to an increase in violent crime isn't going to be simple. It'll need increased police figures, societal change (trying to resolve the issues leading to people becoming marginalised, drug use and culture, etc etc) and various other small changes to nearly every facet of society. Nowhere has managed to do this, so evidently it's not simple.

People with a palatable stake in life don't waste it because of rap music.

And Snowy obviously has a point in that there is a narrative developing that warps reality. That this thread exists is testament to that. There are dozens of violent crimes all over the country every day. We don't hear about them. London has a string of stabbings, it is suddenly a story, when it may actually just be a statistical anomaly.

I'm not sure there's any evidence that it makes thing 'worse', at least as far as knife crime goes. 

There's a massive role for government and philanthropy in terms of funding outreach programs, youth centres and other relevant schemes. Solving broken households is more difficult. Data suggests that black households are far more likely to be a single parent household than other ethnicities. If this actually is a causal factor (which some suggest), it's not clear what government can do, and it's not clear that this is an example of institutional racism.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

11 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

Being 'influenced by rap music' is up there with 'video games make people violent' and 'gateway drugs' in terms of pure undiluted stupidity. 

100% correct.  99% of the violence is to get what you have or to protect what I have & the government makes sure the market is available,  the streets set the price.

'gateway drugs' is a real funny term.  If  'gateway drugs' is a real thing then why is the whole of Holland not smoking crack or doing Heroine considering weed is freely available to all ? If someone can explain that to me that would be great.

 

 

 

[bobzy]

I don't particularly track/care for crime in London - it's so far removed from my life that I have no need to look at it.  However, it does seem that victims/perpetrators are getting younger and younger and more cowardly in their dealings, perhaps?  Particularly with, e.g: the acid attacks committed across the city in order to steal phones et al.  Just shocking.

And, outside of the homicide rhetoric, there does seem to be a bit of a knife problem at the moment:

 

"Seven more people have been injured in stabbings in London as the spate of violent crime in the capital continues.

A boy aged 13 was seriously hurt in an attack in Newham, east London, and another in his late teens suffered stab wounds in Ealing, west London.

Two 15-year-old boys and a 16-year-old were hurt in Mile End and another 15-year-old was stabbed in Poplar."

(Link:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43659952)

 

Just look at the ages of the people involved here.  Madness.

[Demitri_C]

45 minutes ago, snowychap said:

So we'll ignore the facts and go on just how you feel?

Great.

Can you provide the stabbings in London from this year to last year for this period snowy?

[Demitri_C]

33 minutes ago, wazzap24 said:

Not a dig at you Dem in any way, but that's such a load of shite.

Those types of arguments are false flags and distract people from what's really going on.

Being 'influenced by rap music' is up there with 'video games make people violent' and 'gateway drugs' in terms of pure undiluted stupidity. 

 

I agree I don't think its all true but some idiots paid bucks for creating music promoting violence should be banned 

[LakotaDakota]

I go to Stratford a fair bit for various things and walking round stratford/hackney, especially at night is one of the few places in the world where i genuinely feel a bit uneasy and pay extra attention to people around me. It might have a nice shopping center and a shiny olympic stadium but it is a complete shithole

[wazzap24]

8 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

100% correct.  99% of the violence is to get what you have or to protect what I have & the government makes sure the market is available,  the streets set the price.

'gateway drugs' is a real funny term.  If  'gateway drugs' is a real thing then why is the whole of Holland not smoking crack or doing Heroine considering weed is freely available to all ? If someone can explain that to me that would be great.

 

 

 

Honestly it really boils my piss. 

Back in the 90's we were all gonna decapitate each other in the playground because of Mortal Kombat. 

If we didn't do that, we were going to steal police cars and go on murder sprees because of GTA.

That was only if we didn't  all shoot each other in drive by's because we'd seen a Tupac video.

Eminem came along and that was gong to be the absolute end of society as we knew it.

The gateway drug thing is the biggest  con of them all. Because history has clearly proven with alcohol that we all have a can of larger at 15 and end up drinking a bottle of JD everyday. 

Absolute betty swallocks 

[omariqy]

1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Yes but short term actions can save lives and I think we can all agree that's very important, just as solving the 'long' term issues. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Not at all. I completely agree. However, watch the reactions and watch the legislative changes. It will all be short term focused. 

[snowychap]

16 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Can you provide the stabbings in London from this year to last year for this period snowy?

No. I am not the statistician for the Met.

What 'period'? The first 6 days of April? The 5th April? A specific 90 minutes? The first 3 months and 6 days of each year? Taking a snapshot like that would be pretty daft. It would fall foul of the problem of context that I spoke about earlier in the thread.

I don't know the numbers but we should look at the data and draw conclusions from that (with input from other things to assist if that is helpful). We shouldn't just go with 'how people feel' and make public policy on that basis. And we shouldn't try and find data that fits the perceptions already held in order to reinforce what may well be a biased picture in order to come up with policies that people have already decided upon.

[omariqy]

I looked at a chart yesterday comparing NY and London. It was over a 30 year period I believe. London has been, throughout that period, around the same range of murders per year. NY was a pretty crazy place in the early 90s it seems and it has drastically reduced to where it can be compared to London. 

[Demitri_C]

38 minutes ago, snowychap said:

No. I am not the statistician for the Met.

What 'period'? The first 6 days of April? The 5th April? A specific 90 minutes? The first 3 months and 6 days of each year? Taking a snapshot like that would be pretty daft. It would fall foul of the problem of context that I spoke about earlier in the thread.

I don't know the numbers but we should look at the data and draw conclusions from that (with input from other things to assist if that is helpful). We shouldn't just go with 'how people feel' and make public policy on that basis. And we shouldn't try and find data that fits the perceptions already held in order to reinforce what may well be a biased picture in order to come up with policies that people have already decided upon.

Firstly relax its a discussion snowy  

I meant stabbings from Jan-April from 2017 to same period of Jan-April 2018, I would be stunned if 2017 was higher than this year. Anyway I will do it for you to show you the "facts" These are the stabbings of 2018 for London

Fatal stabbings in London, 2018

• January 1 - Steve Frank Navarez-Jara, 20, Islington
• January 3 - Elizabeta Lacatusu, 44, Redbridge
• January 8 - Daniel Frederick, 34, died in Hackney
• January 9 - Dami Odeyingbo, 18, stabbed in Bromley
• January 11 - Harry Uzoka, 25, killed in Shepherd's Bush
• January 28 - Yaya Mbye, 26, stabbed in Stoke Newington
• January 29 - Juan Olmos Saca, 39, stabbed in Peckham
• January 31 - Khader Saleh, 25, stabbed at Wormwood Scrubs prison
• February 3 - Hassan Ozcan, 19, knifed in Barking
• February 3 - Kwabena Nelson, a youth worker, died after being stabbed near his home in Tottenham
• February 8 - Hannah Leonard, 55, stabbed in a flat in Camden
• February 11 - Sabri Chibani, 19, stabbed in Streatham
• February 13 - Saeeda Hussain, 54, was stabbed in Ilford
• February 14 - Lord Promise Nkenda, 17, stabbed in Canning Town
• February 18 - Lewis Blackman, 19, knifed in Kensington
• February 19 - Rotimi Oshibanjo, 26, stabbed in Southall
• February 20 - Sadiq Mohammed, 20, stabbed in Camden
• February 20 - Abdikarim Hassan, 17, stabbed in Camden
• February 25 - Michael Boyle, 44, stabbed in the chest
• March 1 - Christopher Beaumont, 42, stabbed in Hammersmith
• March 5 - Laura Figueira, 47, stabbed in Twickenham
• March 5 - Kelva Smith, 20, knifed in Croydon
• March 14 -  Lyndon Davis, 18, stabbed in Chadwell Heath
• March 16 - Naomi Hersi, 36, found with stab wounds at hotel near Heathrow Airport
• March 17 - Russell Jones, 23, stabbed in Enfield
• March 18 - Tyrone Silcot, 41, stabbed in Hackney
• March 19 - Balbir Johal, 48, knifed in Southall
• March 19 - A 41-year-old was stabbed to death in Waltham Forest but is yet to be identified
• March 20 - Beniamin Pieknyi, 21, stabbed at Stratford shopping centre
• March 26 - David Potter, 50, stabbed in Tooting
• March 29 - Reece Tshoma, 23, stabbed in Plumstead
• March 30 - Leyla Mtumwa, 36, found with stab wounds at a home in Haringey
• April 1 - A 20-year-old was stabbed in Wandsworth, but police have not formally identified the victim
• April 4 - A 38-year-old man stabbed at a house in Lewisham has not yet been formally identified
• April 4 - Israel Ogunsola, 18, was stabbed to death in Hackney on 4 April. Police were alerted by a motorist and performed first aid but the teenager died at the scene
• April 5 - Five teenagers and one one man were stabbed in London within a space of 24 hours. One of the victims was aged 13 and left fighting for his life

Knife crime has increased by 21% in 12 months according to click

[Rob182]

Yesterday around 5pm there were 'reports' of a man with a machete in Dudley, where apparantly 3 people and a dog had been chopped up. The actual police reports just said that a car had hit an elderly man who had been taken to hospital with leg injuries. I drove past the area on the way to the hospital for a breastfeeding class and didn't see anything. I think it was a case of internet idiots looking for retweets.

[snowychap]

29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Firstly relax its a discussion snowy

Well perhaps you ought to approach it in such a way then, Dem.

That would mean not posting as you have done above in a way that is absolutely not designed to put things in to context.

29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I meant stabbings from Jan-April from 2017 to same period of Jan-April 2018, I would be stunned if 2017 was higher than this year. Anyway I will do it for you to show you the "facts" These are the stabbings of 2018 for London

You haven't 'done it', though, have you?

You've listed out the names of the people who have died this year. You haven't compared it to Jan-April last year as you haven't given the names (or numbers) for Jan-April 2017. You have shown 'some facts' not 'the facts'.

29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Knife crime has increased by 21% in 12 months according to click

That's knife crime across England and Wales up to the year ending September 2017 as per the CSEW. Just to actually quote the bit in the link:

Quote

While recent estimates from the CSEW show that most of the higher volume crimes either fell or were at a similar level to the previous year, the police recorded continuing rises in a number of higher-harm violent offences that are not well-measured by the survey. This was most evident in the relatively low volume offences such as knife crime (up 21% to a total of 37,443 recorded offences) and gun crime (up 20% to 6,694 recorded offences). The occurrence of these offences tends to be disproportionately concentrated in London and other metropolitan areas. While it is possible that improved recording and more proactive policing has contributed to this rise, it is our judgement that there have also been genuine increases.

There are a number of things, here - and it's at the heart of why the posts you've made on this topic really piss me off.

It's fine (not fine in the way that the number of incidents is okay, obviously) to be told by the numbers that knife crime is on the increase but we should look at the actual numbers. If you say you're going to compare Jan-Apr 2018 with Jan to Apr 2017 then don't just post a list of the 2018 people, get the **** 2017 numbers, too, so that we can do an actual comparison. That comparison might not be worthwhile - snapshots rarely are - but at least you'd be doing what you claimed to.

It's fine to accept the comments as quoted above regarding the CSEW, i.e. that, even though higher-harm violent offences are not well-measured by the survey, it is their judgement that there have been genuine increases. And, also, that the offences tend to be disproportionately concentrated in London. But, don't just pluck a figure from the middle of a long report and use it because you haven't gone and got the figures for the period you want to make a comparison with.

I'm perfectly happy to approach the subject and draw conclusions from that as I said in the post you quoted. And I'm fine with taking other things in to consideration in order to help with drawing those conclusions (as long as that is done in order to help the drawing of conclusions as opposed to colouring them).

What isn't good is to have someone say 'statistics aside', go on about feelings, pick small snapshots of time in order to support the argument they're already making and then when they actually go and get some data present just one side of it and a percentage taken out of context.

We are not having a discussion. And I shan't waste any more time on whatever it is we are having.

Edited April 6, 2018 by snowychap

[Demitri_C]

9 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Well perhaps you ought to approach it in such a way then, Dem.

That would mean not posting as you have done above in a way that is absolutely not designed to put things in to context.