This Could Be Rotterdam Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 12 hours ago, Demitri_C said: What does everyone make of the tuition fees being scrapped? Good move or bad? This is one of the main things i oppose actually. Not that i agree with the extortionate fees currently being paid because 9 grand a year is ridiculous, but i do think people should have to pay fees for uni. I went the year before the increase so fell lucky, and currently pay back just under £100 a month which comes out before my wages even get to me. I dont miss the money because ive never had it, and i see it as paying back for something which has given me the opportunity to do the job im in now. When i was at uni i took it seriously and worked my arse off to get a first, but I also saw a lot of people coast through not really caring and taking advantage of the opportunity uni provides. I'd be all for a scheme where certain courses that supported employment in sectors we need to progress in to benefit the country were paid for, provided those people stayed in those jobs for a set amount of time after uni. But for generic courses which dont provide a benefit to key sectors of the economy i dont see why people shouldnt have to pay. I think people forget sometimes that it isnt like (i believe) America works, we dont have to start paying as soon as we finish. We only pay back a percentage of the loan above a certain limit, if we dont hit that limit we will never pay it back. As an aside to that, when the election was announced i was fairly sure id vote tory, for several reasons but mainly because i thought May's stance on brexit would be the only one that matched me as a leave voter and because the labour party looked a shambles. The closer we get to the election the more i am swaying to labour. I think Corbyn has so far run a great campaign and May has made herself more unlikable by the day. Theres still a lot to consider before election day, but if it came tomorrow i would be voting labour. If that says anything about the general consensus of how people who May thought she'd capture to get the bigger majority will vote then election day could become very interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: "it seems to good to be true" But it is true... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dAVe80 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: But it is true... Plus Sweden got Zlatan. We don't got Zlatan. It is about £5 a pint though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted May 17, 2017 Moderator Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, sharkyvilla said: Surely the main problem here is the deficit? It was almost impossible to avoid the debt going up a shitload. Someone should have told George Osbourne. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted May 17, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: See back to my original point, about look after my own interests but still can look out for others. although it doesnt benefit me whatsoever as I don't have kids I am in favour of the free tuition fees, providing they are honest how they intend to pay for that. That is going to need a hell of a lot of money from somewhere. My only concern with making it free, is what happens with drop outs? Would they repay the cost? They've released a document that saying how they will pay for it? What about drop outs? If you drop out, you drop out? It's your loss at the end of the day, if it was free to begin with it shouldn't be chargeable if you drop out, people can drop out for all sorts of reasons, family, kids, bullying, work, mental illness, laziness... it's not fair to tar them all with the same brush. Ever since the Brexit vote and a seemingly shift to the right i've been feeling a little disillusioned with this country and not very proud of it. Having a completely free educational system and repairing the NHS would be a real statement for me, and would make me feel pride again. Edited May 17, 2017 by PieFacE 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Poland has universal healthcare and free university. You know what happens because of free uni? Most people go and do STEM courses. And then go on to do a masters. In fact, you almost need a masters in Poland because there's no excuse to not have one. Poland are an apparently poor country, yet they can pay for both of these things. That we don't have the money to pay for these fundamental rights is a lie that is eaten up by the electorate. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, PieFacE said: They've released a document that saying how they will pay for it? What about drop outs? If you drop out, you drop out? It's your loss at the end of the day, if it was free to begin with it shouldn't be chargeable if you drop out, people can drop out for all sorts of reasons, family, kids, bullying, work, mental illness, laziness... it's not fair to tar them all with the same brush. Ever since the Brexit vote and a seemingly shift to the right i've been feeling a little disillusioned with this country and not very proud of it. Having a completely free educational system and repairing the NHS would be a real statement for me, and would make me feel pride again. Hmm I don't agree about the drop out part. If your paying the fees yourself your less likely to drop out as it's your own investment. If it's free then our taxes pay for you to go so you drop out and our money has been wasted. I actually would t be opposed to the students paying half the fees so therefore they wont just quit and the taxpayer has paid for them and got nothing in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Poland has universal healthcare and free university. You know what happens because of free uni? Most people go and do STEM courses. And then go on to do a masters. In fact, you almost need a masters in Poland because there's no excuse to not have one. Poland are an apparently poor country, yet they can pay for both of these things. That we don't have the money to pay for these fundamental rights is a lie that is eaten up by the electorate. I'm sure they'd tell you it's paid for by the wealth 'stolen' from us by all the Poles entering the country here and being awarded a 42 bedroom detached house and a million pound a week benefits package. Bloody scroungers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 18 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Poland has universal healthcare and free university. You know what happens because of free uni? Most people go and do STEM courses. And then go on to do a masters. In fact, you almost need a masters in Poland because there's no excuse to not have one. Poland are an apparently poor country, yet they can pay for both of these things. That we don't have the money to pay for these fundamental rights is a lie that is eaten up by the electorate. I'm curious to what the Poland immigration figures to the UK is in this case, as why would you come here if you have those benefits ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: I'm curious to what the Poland immigration figures to the UK is in this case, as why would you come here if you have those benefits ? Poland is a curious case. People who have visited me here have always commented how it isn't what they expected at all. In truth, it's quickly becoming a modern European country. Young people in Poland go to two places. The cities or abroad. What's happening now, is more and more business is coming here and young people are finding employment within the cities instead. Many Poles who come to the UK are low-skilled (why would you work for 1.20 in a factory in Poland when you can do exactly the same for 7 quid in the UK) or skilled workers like plumbers/builders for the same reason. I'd be interested to see the rates of professional Poles moving to the UK. As many young Poles now get a masters and are very qualified. I'm not even sure when I'll come back, considering the quality of life I have now, after only two promotions within my company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted May 17, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 17, 2017 6 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Hmm I don't agree about the drop out part. If your paying the fees yourself your less likely to drop out as it's your own investment. If it's free then our taxes pay for you to go so you drop out and our money has been wasted. I actually would t be opposed to the students paying half the fees so therefore they wont just quit and the taxpayer has paid for them and got nothing in return. Currently people take out student loans and then when they drop out just don't bother paying them back. What if people change their mind on what they want to study? Why financially hold people to keep doing something they don't want to do? And also all the other issues I mentioned, what if someone is mentally ill and just cannot face going to classes, or even getting out of bed.... should they have to pay the whole thing too? Having to pay to drop out won't make people not drop out, it will just be more money to write off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 29 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Poland has universal healthcare and free university. You know what happens because of free uni? Most people go and do STEM courses. And then go on to do a masters. In fact, you almost need a masters in Poland because there's no excuse to not have one. Poland are an apparently poor country, yet they can pay for both of these things. That we don't have the money to pay for these fundamental rights is a lie that is eaten up by the electorate. Its two things. The Tories say we can't afford it but they say that about everything. The argument made by Blair and co at the time was the why should we pay for other people's education. So it was a freeeedom line similar to those being spouted by the republicans in US over healthcare. All I'll say is that the longer you stay in the education system the stronger your faculties for critical thinking become. If a higher percentage of people had those we wouldn't face many of the issues we now do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted May 17, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Hmm I don't agree about the drop out part. If your paying the fees yourself your less likely to drop out as it's your own investment. If it's free then our taxes pay for you to go so you drop out and our money has been wasted. I actually would t be opposed to the students paying half the fees so therefore they wont just quit and the taxpayer has paid for them and got nothing in return. My missus dropped out of her (free) course during her first year, as she absolutely hated it. Then she re-enrolled into a different course which she loves. Now, she'll be an engineer when she's done; an essential member of working society. This attitude is reflective of a big issue in this country; no offense to you. We have to choose our GCSE options at 14, which then lead into our A-Level options at 16, which then leads to choosing a uni and course at 17. Are we really going to start punishing 14/15/16/17/18 year olds for potentially making bad decisions? Surely that age is when you should be encouraged to try things out; not stick with something because you've invested thousands of pounds into it, then be miserable for the rest of your life doing something you absolutely hate? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 10 hours ago, chrisp65 said: latest Office of National Statistics figures: I'm sure any day now the tory party will be quizzed, quizzed and quizzed again on the numbers. The trouble is that it undermines Labour's main target for attack on the Tories: austerity. It shows that the Tories stuck with the spending plans of New Labour but recession, followed by slower growth than Labour had taken for granted, and low inflation, increased the deficit and therefore the debt. It justifies the recurring question: what austerity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted May 17, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: We have to choose our GCSE options at 14, which then lead into our A-Level options at 16, which then leads to choosing a uni and course at 17. Are we really going to start punishing 14/15/16/17/18 year olds for potentially making bad decisions? Surely that age is when you should be encouraged to try things out; not stick with something because you've invested thousands of pounds into it, then be miserable for the rest of your life doing something you absolutely hate? Agree completely. Most kids at the age of 16/17/18 have no idea who they are or what they want to be. I know I didn't. They shouldn't be punished for trying to better themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, PieFacE said: Agree completely. Most kids at the age of 16/17/18 have no idea who they are or what they want to be. I know I didn't. They shouldn't be punished for trying to better themselves. I trained to be a teacher! Then scrapped it to work in IT, then scrapped that and went into Sales, then back into IT. I was nearly 24 by the time I felt I was fully happy in what I was doing. I wrote a long post about my views on university and tuition previously. To summarise that again; I support fees for vocational courses, as 7 hours a week is a pisstake and it just encourages students to piss around for 3 years. I got nothing out of my degree other than 30k+ of debt. However, those courses that are STEM or intensive hours wise, should be free and even weighted towards the students financially. Edited May 17, 2017 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 17, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted May 17, 2017 My degree has next to no actual vocational use. I applied for it because it was a field I was interested in and it was one of those degrees that potentially could lead to variety of jobs without explicitly giving you training for anything in particular. At the time I didn't have a clue what I wanted to do, and in truth I still don't, I work in a field littered with intelligent people who didn't know what to do with themselves. But the degree is helpful. It effectively shows you can set your mind to something, think critically, be organised, etc etc. People tend to fall into the trap that a degree is either explicitly vocational, or useless. There are very few 'worthless' degrees. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) Don't Cuba have one of the highest levels of educational anywhere in the World and isn't that all free and the health service is suppose to be very good. Are Cuba a country which is poor because of the embargo placed on them by the USA, where socialism actually works.? Or is all a myth about their great health service etc Edited May 17, 2017 by PaulC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 FWIW I can't comment on Poland's universal healthcare as I have private but the free further education seems very, very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 51 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Poland is a curious case. People who have visited me here have always commented how it isn't what they expected at all. In truth, it's quickly becoming a modern European country. Young people in Poland go to two places. The cities or abroad. What's happening now, is more and more business is coming here and young people are finding employment within the cities instead. Many Poles who come to the UK are low-skilled (why would you work for 1.20 in a factory in Poland when you can do exactly the same for 7 quid in the UK) or skilled workers like plumbers/builders for the same reason. I'd be interested to see the rates of professional Poles moving to the UK. As many young Poles now get a masters and are very qualified. I'm not even sure when I'll come back, considering the quality of life I have now, after only two promotions within my company. That's a interesting insight Stefan as I never knew the poles had it like that. If I was you I wouldn't come back! I think things are only going to get worse here regardless which government is in control. I do think conservatives will win but it won't be the landslide being reported. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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