General Election 2017

[hippo]

3 minutes ago, PaulC said:

The one thing great about this country is the NHS and my one personal experience when something bad happened to me they were brilliant. The nurses at the QE made my stay quite enjoyable really. Obviously if you have something non critical needed doing  like  a knee or hip replacement then it isn't so good. I think most people who can afford it take out private health insurance. 

Actually once you get into a private health care system - it isn't all that TBH. You are very often seeing the same guys who work for the NHS - there's delays cancellations. Sure theres less patients kicking around - I really don't think its the answer en mass.

[hippo]

2 minutes ago, jon_c said:

Yes, I'm just saying there is money spent very badly in the NHS. It's a licence to print money for drugs companies at the moment. You should see the money their reps spend wooing doctors, to prescribe their drugs. It's obscene. 

These root issues need to be sorted, because investment in the NHS without careful overhaul, is just going to go straight to private companies. Without improving much at all for ordinary people.

Seeking profit from peoples ill health is obscene. But that's private drug companies looking to make a profit (which is what private companies do) That is, and always will be an NHS overhead - I wouldn't lay that as a flaw in the NHS.

 

[a m ole]

25 minutes ago, KHV said:

I think people who are on a certain amount of salary (someone will have to decide this) should have to have private health cover and that it should be made to be compulsory. I think they should have to have private health cover throughout their adult working life until they retire, they should also still have to pay the same NI as if they are a high earner they should contribute to helping those less fortunate. When they retire they should then be able to use the NHS services if they choose not to keep private health care, if they have managed to save well and have a good pension then they could continue with private if they wish.

Private cover is not as expensive as some people think, I have my family covered privately

 

interesting idea, and I did come to the wrong conclusions so sorry for that!

[KHV]

6 minutes ago, a m ole said:

interesting idea, and I did come to the wrong conclusions so sorry for that!

I maybe should have used the phrase re-designed rather than scrapped in it's current format!

The NHS has had tweaks and changes in the past but I really think it needs to be totally re-thought. The problem is it's that is been that badly managed for years I wondering if it's got to the point where it it's almost impossible to get right now.

[villa4europe]

due to my own personal experiences im really against scrapping tuition fees, its not the answer IMO the whole culture of how our education system is angled towards the be all and end all that university apparently is needs changing, not thousands of youngsters going off to get degrees that too big a percentage wont use

in my opinion what should be happening due to tuition fees is youngsters should be questioning the worth of university, looking beyond the 3 years and the career path afterwards, there are too many degrees, there are too many degrees that dont necessarily lead to a career afterwards, there are too many admissions for certain degrees, if i use the example of my partner who has a forensic science degree, she was 1 of 40 kids in her class at Derby, which was 1 of 5 universities that she visited offering that course (there might be more) in theory thats 200 kids a year coming out of uni with forensic science degrees, how many forensic science jobs do you think there are? 

what the government should be doing is encouraging more companies and businesses to put kids through university or more schemes and methods to avoid university all together, again using the example of my partner 8 years after she left university she is now ACCA chartered accountant, being chartered trumps the accounting degree that her room mate earned at uni, her room mate also had to get chartered after uni, she basically got paid by her company to have the same qualification

its not the fees part that doesnt work

[KHV]

29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

What happens if the lose their job, would they then go to NHS sevices? Also how would you regulate this? When you go in the NHS your not asked about your disposable income so therefore how would you prevent a rich person from using NHS?

Its difficult alone trying to filter out people using the NHS who don't live here that should be paying to us eour NHS yet get treatment for free 

Yes, if you were unemployed you could use the NHS.

On regulation.........**** knows I'm just an ideas man

You have made good valid points, regulating anything of the magnitude of the NHS is always going to throw up issues and problems.

[Risso]

1 hour ago, TrentVilla said:

"No society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means"

Bevan

"The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to fight for it"

Bevan again.

The NHS was founded on 3 principles, that it meets the needs of everyone, that it be free at the point of delivery and it be based on clinical need not ability to pay.

Personally I'm still with Bevan, the NHS isn't perfect, how could it ever be (particularly when it's being intentionally underfunded) but it is one of the greatest things our democracy and indeed nation has ever achieved.

The very suggestion it should be scrapped, sold off, turned over to business, restricted from those who need it but can't afford to pay frankly turns my stomach.

It is a non negotiable red line in my personal political outlook and very concept of society.

It should cherished, respected and protected that it isn't and that it is being attacked by the Tories is as abhorrent as it is unsurprising.

I'm with Bevan.

 

And Bevan was with Churchill:

"The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all. That is clear: Disease must be attacked, whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman simply on the ground that it is the enemy; and it must be attacked just in the same way as the fire brigade will give its full assistance to the humblest cottage as readily as to the most important mansion. Our policy is to create a national health service in order to ensure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available."

That was Churchill speaking in 1944.

From the Conservatives 1945 manifesto:

"The health services of the country will be made available to all citizens. Everyone will contribute to the cost, and no one will be denied the attention, the treatment or the appliances he requires because he cannot afford them. We propose to create a comprehensive health service covering the whole range of medical treatment from the general practitioner to the specialist, and from the hospital to convalescence and rehabilitation."

 

 

 

[MakemineVanilla]

13 hours ago, Xann said:

Meant to go back to this, sorry.

With an economy that consuming people and planet, desperate is the word.

You're entitled to your opinions on climate science, you know mine.

I wasn't thinking of climate-change, it was prompted by my belief that only a capitalist system can produce the surpluses which are needed to finance something more than basic public services and benefits

Sweden was only able to build its welfare state based on the wealth accumulated by capitalism.

I think slagging off big business and the ubiquitous 'greedy bankers' might be a crowd-pleaser but it is the denial of the reality.

The reason the UK is the 'sixth richest country in the world' is because of capitalism not in spite of capitalism.

The message to business should be, to make as much money as you can, but we are going to tax you for the benefit of the community.

[blandy]

11 hours ago, PompeyVillan said:

It's the piggy  bank kind of 'economy first' thinking that has led our public services to breaking

No it absolutely isn't. The Tory actions on the economy and on public services are and were unrelated.

We know that when they fgot in in 2010 the economy was growing and Osborne then killed that growth by his hacking at expenditure. The tories effed up the econnomy and at the same time effed up public services. In both instances it was ideological idiocy. It continues to be incompetence and ideology that's leading to ever more crumbling services and infrastucture - it's not related to "economy first" thinking at all. That's just the excuse the tories are making "we can't afford...because economy.." it's horseshit. 

 

[jon_c]

17 minutes ago, hippo said:

Seeking profit from peoples ill health is obscene. But that's private drug companies looking to make a profit (which is what private companies do) That is, and always will be an NHS overhead - I wouldn't lay that as a flaw in the NHS.

 

From what i've been told.  If a doctor writes on a prescription, to simplify it, say Nurofen, this is what must be given. But Nurofen costs say £4 a pack, but it is Ibuprofen. Unbranded Ibuprofen costs 26p a pack. Drugs companies at my dad's practice for example used to take all the Doctors once a month to a swanky restaurant all expense paid to encourage them to do this sort of thing. 

Then there are similar deals with contracts, where the NHS pays say £80 to a contracted supplier for the flu vaccine, where you can get it from other companies for say £10. 

It needs to be changed. Otherwise we're never going to be able to afford to run our health care system. 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

One thing I will say the people asked for it ["You could say the same about brexit - we are opting out of one the largest trading groups in the world"] and Cameron delivered on that so I wont slate the party on that

That's rubbish twice Dem. Firstly "the people" didn't ask to leave the single market. That wasn't the exam question. Secondly Cameron ran away the day after the result. He delivered nothing. May has started the process, and God knows where it's heading, but no-one's delivered on anything.

[Xann]

1 minute ago, MakemineVanilla said:

Sweden was only able to build its welfare state based on the wealth accumulated by capitalism.

I think the capitalist model is shit, if we ripped it all up and started again without the baggage we could do better.

That's just the way it is. Cars, computers...  All sorts of things could be drastically improved if we didn't pander to the industries behind them.

In some cases there's an argument for letting it slide. This really isn't one of them.

[MakemineVanilla]

2 minutes ago, Xann said:

I think the capitalist model is shit, if we ripped it all up and started again without the baggage we could do better.

That's just the way it is. Cars, computers...  All sorts of things could be drastically improved if we didn't pander to the industries behind them.

In some cases there's an argument for letting it slide. This really isn't one of them.

So where's your working example, we should work towards, and who is the person virtuous enough to run it?

[KHV]

44 minutes ago, hippo said:

Actually once you get into a private health care system - it isn't all that TBH. You are very often seeing the same guys who work for the NHS - there's delays cancellations. Sure theres less patients kicking around - I really don't think its the answer en mass.

Disagree, I have had back surgery and throat surgery using my private cover. It was a very fast process with no issues at all. I also use a private dentist too and that has always been a top class service as well.

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, KHV said:

I think people who are on a certain amount of salary (someone will have to decide this) should have to have private health cover and that it should be made to be compulsory. I think they should have to have private health cover throughout their adult working life until they retire, they should also still have to pay the same NI as if they are a high earner they should contribute to helping those less fortunate. When they retire they should then be able to use the NHS services if they choose not to keep private health care, if they have managed to save well and have a good pension then they could continue with private if they wish.

Private cover is not as expensive as some people think, I have my family covered privately

 

Up to a point. Here's a true story. 

My sister-in-law married an American. He had a VERY good government job (branch of the CIA as it happens), and was medically insured up to the max. In his old age he got seriously ill and ended up permanently hospitalised. Eventually his insurance cover ran out, and they had to start spending his life savings and pension. By the time he died it was mostly gone. My s-i-l is stuck there, still paying a mortgage (from her small pension) on a house that's worth less than they paid for it, and basically stony broke. 

Great system, I look forward to it. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by mjmooney

[snowychap]

Don't know what the BBC are playing at giving Nutty a one to one interview session on prime time TV.

 

Edit: I know - OFCOM guidelines and all that - but still this bloke gets too much airtime than is good for my sanity.

Edited May 11, 2017 by snowychap

[Xann]

Just now, MakemineVanilla said:

So where's your working example, we should work towards, and who is the person virtuous enough to run it?

Ha - We model it, test it, then make it. Same as any other unprecedented project. Computers have got a bit more savvy since the Moon shot.

I'd also let computers do much of the admin and make the code viewable to all.

You want some more ideas? I'll do some reading and charge you a consultancy fee

[hippo]

12 minutes ago, KHV said:

Disagree, I have had back surgery and throat surgery using my private cover. It was a very fast process with no issues at all. I also use a private dentist too and that has always been a top class service as well.

Thats good.

But do you think that level of service or something pretty close is beyond the NHS.  

I had a hernia op on the NHS a couple of years back - all waiting times were reasonable - I was admitted at 8.30 - in theatre at 9 - discharged at noon. Follow up scan a few weeks later. What would I have gained by going private ? 

[Risso]

2 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Don't know what the BBC are playing at giving Nutty a one to one interview session on prime time TV.

The final nail in UKIP's coffin I would imagine.

[ml1dch]

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Don't know what the BBC are playing at giving Nutty a one to one interview session on prime time TV.

Trying to wring the last few pennies out of a meagre BBC Comedy budget?