General Election 2017

[Dr_Pangloss]

I'm all for scrapping tuition fees and renationalising train operators. They are good ideas. But we have to be realistic about how we pay for these sorts of things. Whilst it's important that the 'rich' pay their fair share, and that it becomes increasingly difficult to 'hide' their incomes, the fact is, the marginal return to the treasury of, for instance, a 1 percentage point increase in income tax, will almost certainly decrease the further up the the income brackets that you go. So the middle classes will have to pay more to support this, and then it's a question down to what kind of society 'they' want.

Raising CT may not be such a good idea given Brexit, other forms of tax, such as land tax, or some sort of Piketterian wealth tax could also be considered but how feasible are they (especially the latter)?

Edited May 11, 2017 by Dr_Pangloss

[KHV]

The NHS needs to be scrapped in its current format and totally overhauled in the way it's funded and who can use it

[hippo]

7 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

One thing I will say the people asked for it and Cameron delivered on that so I wont slate the party on that. I am not happy about exiting the EU but I won't accept taht criticism I am afraid

The money is always there as you say, but labour haven't told us where its coming from, all they go on about is raising corporation tax, that alone will not pay for all of this.  

Although i agree things are pretty lame, it was a bigger shower of shit under Blairs final term and Brown. What a a shit period it was then. 

Depends how you define shit.

There is x amount of money in the economy - as well or poor has the economy does - how it is divided up is equally important.

Lets not forget George Osborne was telling us were were on the edge of a financial cliff, but only a few weeks later - cut taxes for the most wealthy. its a case of where there is a will there is way.

Better public services can be had and funded without financial meltdown pretty easily - is there the the political will to do that ?  - at the moment no.  

 

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by hippo

[Chindie]

Giving an additional cost to businesses in light of Brexit is outright daft.

[Demitri_C]

5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Giving an additional cost to businesses in light of Brexit is outright daft.

I agree asking for job losses galore 

[markavfc40]

15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Although i agree things are pretty lame, it was a bigger shower of shit under Blairs final term and Brown. What a a shit period it was then. 

for who exactly?

I don’t remember people having to wait in A and E for hours on end,  I don’t remember thousands of elderly people being stuck in hospital beds as the social care provision no longer existed to help them at home, I don’t remember people killing themselves as they had been wrongly assessed as being fit for work by a private company and lost disability benefits, I don’t remember hearing of schools having to cut 20% of staff and class numbers rising,  I don’t remember a million plus people using food banks, I don’t remember anything like the levels of child poverty we have now, I don’t remember a growing culture where demonising those on benefits be they disabled or otherwise was fair game, I don’t remember the government of that time turning a blind eye to the culture of pointing the finger at Johnny Foreigner for our woes.

Seriously mate I would be interested to hear exactly who things were worse for?

Edited May 11, 2017 by markavfc40

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, KHV said:

Typical labour, spend a shitload of money with no way of paying for it.

Would you care to look at and detail the spending (versus income) of the Tory-led coalition/Tory governments of the last seven years and plot it against what they told us it would be?

Edited May 11, 2017 by snowychap
Edit: Added 'versus income'

[Demitri_C]

Just now, markavfc40 said:

for who exactly?

I don’t remember people having to wait in A and E for hours on end,  I don’t remember thousands of elderly people being stuck in hospital beds as the social care provision no longer existed to help them at home, I don’t remember people killing themselves as they had been wrongly assessed as being fit for work by a private company and lost disability benefits, I don’t remember hearing of schools having to get 20% of staff and class numbers rising,  I don’t remember a million plus people using food banks, I don’t remember anything like the levels of child poverty we have now, I don’t remember a growing culture where demonising those on benefits be they disabled or otherwise was fair game, I don’t remember the government of that time turning a blind eye to the culture of pointing the finger at Johnny Foreigner for our woes.

Seriously mate I would be interested to hear exactly who things were worse for?

I am not going to defend the state of the NHS it is a mess, but a lot of it is because the population is getting bigger. The thing that irritates me is the closure of all these hospitals, but its the cost that is making this happy. I believe that Tories AND labour want it privatized as it costs too much money to run. 

I can only speak for my situation, but under labour i struggled to find a job. It was bloody difficult. Labour made (and still is wasting money in my local area on crap) for example round my area the IDIOTS decided to make bicycles lanes all through our town centers, thats caused significant amounts of traffic, reduced parking and now alot of businesses are struggling as no one is going to them because there is no where to park. (oh by the way the few cyclists that do cycle here are not even using the lanes they still use the roads) the genius of our labour ran council.

Its diffciult for me to comment regarding food banks as round my local area no one has the need for them as most are employed (and I live in london one of the most expensive places in the country to live) its not perfect, can be far better but at least there are jobs for people unlike under the period I stated before. My personal circumstances were poorer under labour than they are now (and thats with a freeze on my wages for being NHS staff) 

 

[Chindie]

I'm not sure there's many modern countries that don't 'spend a shitload of money with no way of paying for it'. States aren't households or businesses. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Chindie

[villaglint]

30 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I'm all for scrapping tuition fees and renationalising train operators. They are good ideas. But we have to be realistic about how we pay for these sorts of things. Whilst it's important that the 'rich' pay their fair share, and that it becomes increasingly difficult to 'hide' their incomes, the fact is, the marginal return to the treasury of, for instance, a 1 percentage point increase in income tax, will almost certainly decrease the further up the the income brackets that you go. So the middle classes will have to pay more to support this, and then it's a question down to what kind of society 'they' want.

Raising CT may not be such a good idea given Brexit, other forms of tax, such as land tax, or some sort of Piketterian wealth tax could also be considered but how feasible are they (especially the latter)?

Pretty much agree with all of that Dr P. I think all of Mr Corbyns tax hikes would be hitting me and I really don't consider myself part of the elite! 

[TrentVilla]

34 minutes ago, KHV said:

The NHS needs to be scrapped in its current format and totally overhauled in the way it's funded and who can use it

"No society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means"

Bevan

"The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to fight for it"

Bevan again.

The NHS was founded on 3 principles, that it meets the needs of everyone, that it be free at the point of delivery and it be based on clinical need not ability to pay.

Personally I'm still with Bevan, the NHS isn't perfect, how could it ever be (particularly when it's being intentionally underfunded) but it is one of the greatest things our democracy and indeed nation has ever achieved.

The very suggestion it should be scrapped, sold off, turned over to business, restricted from those who need it but can't afford to pay frankly turns my stomach.

It is a non negotiable red line in my personal political outlook and very concept of society.

It should cherished, respected and protected that it isn't and that it is being attacked by the Tories is as abhorrent as it is unsurprising.

I'm with Bevan.

 

[Chindie]

5 minutes ago, TrentVilla said:

"No society can legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person is denied medical aid because of lack of means"

Bevan

"The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to fight for it"

Bevan again.

The NHS was founded on 3 principles, that it meets the needs of everyone, that it be free at the point of delivery and it be based on clinical need not ability to pay.

Personally I'm still with Bevan, the NHS isn't perfect, how could it ever be (particularly when it's being intentionally underfunded) but it is one of the greatest things our democracy and indeed nation has ever achieved.

The very suggestion it should be scrapped, sold off, turned over to business, restricted from those who need it but can't afford to pay frankly turns my stomach.

It is a non negotiable red line in my personal political outlook and very concept of society.

It should cherished, respected and protected that it isn't and that it is being attacked by the Tories is as abhorrent as it is unsurprising.

I'm with Bevan.

 

Excellent post.

The NHS should be a jewel in the crown. Healthcare available to all, improving, extending and saving lives.

It's non-negotiable.

The parties know it as well. Hence why the Tories choose to boil the frog.

[a m ole]

56 minutes ago, KHV said:

The NHS needs to be scrapped in its current format and totally overhauled in the way it's funded and who can use it

what do you propose, out of interest, before I take your post the wrong way and interpret it as absolutely vile?

[KHV]

Just now, a m ole said:

what do you propose, out of interest, before I take your post the wrong way and interpret it as absolutely vile?

I think people who are on a certain amount of salary (someone will have to decide this) should have to have private health cover and that it should be made to be compulsory. I think they should have to have private health cover throughout their adult working life until they retire, they should also still have to pay the same NI as if they are a high earner they should contribute to helping those less fortunate. When they retire they should then be able to use the NHS services if they choose not to keep private health care, if they have managed to save well and have a good pension then they could continue with private if they wish.

Private cover is not as expensive as some people think, I have my family covered privately

 

[jon_c]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

not so sure - I work in the NHS - staff retention is real problem. For example where I work we literally can not hang onto decent project managers. 

My dad was 40 years a manager in the NHS and from what I could tell he could make loads of decisions that would save money all over the place. Particularly not getting drugs which are exactly the same from specified suppliers for hugely over inflated prices, and being cheaper and less waiting time, to fly someone to Scotland to have certain operation (including paying for flights and hotels) than using the local hospital. 

But these choices he was not allowed to make, because they didn't give the management enough power to do so. He left because he was more fed up with this sort of thing, than the money.

 

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, KHV said:

I think people who are on a certain amount of salary (someone will have to decide this) should have to have private health cover and that it should be made to be compulsory. I think they should have to have private health cover throughout their adult working life until they retire, they should also still have to pay the same NI as if they are a high earner they should contribute to helping those less fortunate. When they retire they should then be able to use the NHS services if they choose not to keep private health care, if they have managed to save well and have a good pension then they could continue with private if they wish.

Private cover is not as expensive as some people think, I have my family covered privately

 

What happens if the lose their job, would they then go to NHS sevices? Also how would you regulate this? When you go in the NHS your not asked about your disposable income so therefore how would you prevent a rich person from using NHS?

Its difficult alone trying to filter out people using the NHS who don't live here that should be paying to us eour NHS yet get treatment for free 

[hippo]

1 minute ago, jon_c said:

My dad was 40 years a manager in the NHS and from what I could tell he could make loads of decisions that would save money all over the place. Particularly not getting drugs which are exactly the same from specified suppliers for hugely over inflated prices, and being cheaper and less waiting time, to fly someone to Scotland to have certain operation (including paying for flights and hotels) than using the local hospital. 

But these choices he was not allowed to make, because they didn't give the management enough power to do so. He left because he was more fed up with this sort of thing, than the money.

 

I can see that. But surley thats not unique to the NHS. 

My Brother works in insurance and has similar complaints. 

[hippo]

7 minutes ago, KHV said:

I think people who are on a certain amount of salary (someone will have to decide this) should have to have private health cover and that it should be made to be compulsory. I think they should have to have private health cover throughout their adult working life until they retire, they should also still have to pay the same NI as if they are a high earner they should contribute to helping those less fortunate. When they retire they should then be able to use the NHS services if they choose not to keep private health care, if they have managed to save well and have a good pension then they could continue with private if they wish.

Private cover is not as expensive as some people think, I have my family covered privately

 

and what do we gain by that ?

You pay insurance - but is compulsory (sounds almost like national insurance ?) 

You would be going to a healthcare provider in a profit making sense  (but not all illnesses\conditions can show a profit) - So is it back to the NHS for these ? - Who pays for research ?

Sounds like a terribly cumbersome and expensive way of providing for profit healthcare providers with a revenue stream.

 

[PaulC]

The one thing great about this country is the NHS and my one personal experience when something bad happened to me they were brilliant. The nurses at the QE made my stay quite enjoyable really. Obviously if you have something non critical needed doing  like  a knee or hip replacement then it isn't so good. I think most people who can afford it take out private health insurance. 

[jon_c]

Just now, hippo said:

I can see that. But surley thats not unique to the NHS. 

My Brother works in insurance and has similar complaints. 

Yes, I'm just saying there is money spent very badly in the NHS. It's a licence to print money for drugs companies at the moment. You should see the money their reps spend wooing doctors, to prescribe their drugs. It's obscene. 

These root issues need to be sorted, because investment in the NHS without careful overhaul, is just going to go straight to private companies. Without improving much at all for ordinary people.