mykeyb Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, wazzap24 said: Ha! Brilliant, we are having a debate and you call me out on my grammar. Deflection first - sums up the Tory campaign Maybe they will, but if they do, it won't be because they believe it's the right thing to do, or becuase they have 'listened to the GBP', it will be a desperate power grab and the electorate will see through it imo. Did you go to school under tory or labour governments? Labour have realigned themselves plenty of time in the last 30 years was that in a desperate powergrab too? Sometimes you have to listen to what the public are saying and take it on board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Just now, hippo said: I thought they would at least demanded an election free timescale. As it is they prop up the Tories - until the Tories feel comfortable enough to call another election. So they gain nothing. They will have made some demands, certainly. But a fairly flexible arrangement probably gives them more scope than something more formal, with the tory position being (ironically) so unstable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 minute ago, peterms said: And your spelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykeyb Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, hippo said: I thought they would at least demanded an election free timescale. As it is they prop up the Tories - until the Tories feel comfortable enough to call another election. So they gain nothing. I dont think anyone at Tory HQ will have the stomach for another election anytime soon and wont call one unless they are forced to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post BOF Posted June 9, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 9, 2017 Obviously NSFW language in this. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) Ive voted labour most of my life - so i am chuffed the Tories didn't get a majority. Lingering at the back of mind though is I can't see where labour go from here ? - The Tories need to replace May, court the student vote , scrap all that pensioner bashing and go to country What do labour do ? - they are 70's seats off a majority - where do they go to get those extra votes ? - what do they do ? for me they need to move to the centre - but given last good showing they may not see it that way.... Edited June 9, 2017 by hippo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) I'm not quite sure why people like the guy above is so chuffed about the result for Corbyn. He's stranded in no man's land, and frankly I can't see how he's going to get another 60 seats in the next election. He needs to be inclusive in his party to account for all the areas of our land that vote for centrist policies, not make it even more socialist. It needs to become a people's party - not a party for the left wing. He's done really well at tuning his "left" side down a lot in this election and that is what Labour needs to continue doing to become palpable for seats like Basingstoke, areas of Wilts, Hants, Oxford, Norfolk etc where he'll need to gain seats next election. People down here aren't going to vote for a pure socialist party. I would say that the most powerful politicians in the UK atm are all the sideliners who are able to dictate who will form a hung or coalition government. Corbyn and May are both pretty powerless here - and small parties like DUP, LD and SNP will dictate far more than they ever have. Edited June 9, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, mykeyb said: Did you go to school under tory or labour governments? Labour have realigned themselves plenty of time in the last 30 years was that in a desperate powergrab too? Sometimes you have to listen to what the public are saying and take it on board. I'll just ignore the first bit, no real need for it. Debate the issue, not my education (or lack of it). Parties do change and yes you could make an argument for Labour trying to 'powergrab' under Blair. They deliberately shifted to the centre to try and get in, no doubt. I don't think you can say with any credibility that the more recent pull back to the left was a powergrab, given what everybody thought would happen? The key difference here is, the Tories have run on an 'anti-Labour' campaign. Again, I don't really think you can argue that can you? The main focus has been 'you cannot vote for Corbyn because....blah blah', I think that's fair isn't it? So, if we are faced with another GE in the next 12 months, how can they credibly embrace any element of Corbyn/Labour's positions, when it goes against very heart of their policies and ideology? They would rightly get called out for it by any half decent, unbiased journalist and the new leader would spend most of the campaign trying to justify the u-turns? I just don't see how they could suddenly become the not-so-Tory, Tory party and get people to believe it? Over time, with a complete change in personnel, possibly, but within a mattter of months? Really? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe a new face and some different soundbites and they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, wazzap24 said: I'll just ignore the first bit, no real need for it. Debate the issue, not my education (or lack of it). Parties do change and yes you could make an argument for Labour trying to 'powergrab' under Blair. They deliberately shifted to the centre to try and get in, no doubt. I don't think you can say with any credibility that the more recent pull back to the left was a powergrab, given what everybody thought would happen? The key difference here is, the Tories have run on an 'anti-Labour' campaign. Again, I don't really think you can argue that can you? The main focus has been 'you cannot vote for Corbyn because....blah blah', I think that's fair isn't it? So, if we are faced with another GE in the next 12 months, how can they credibly embrace any element of Corbyn/Labour's positions, when it goes against very heart of their policies and ideology? They would rightly get called out for it by any half decent, unbiased journalist and the new leader would spend most of the campaign trying to justify the u-turns? I just don't see how they could suddenly become the not-so-Tory, Tory party and get people to believe it? Over time, with a complete change in personnel, possibly, but within a mattter of months? Really? Maybe I'm wrong, maybe a new face and some different soundbites and they will. Worked short term when they ditched Maggie for Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 9, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2017 A anti-abortion party with 300,000 votes can form government with their 10 seats, yet a party with 500,000 votes and one seat gets no say. Our system is a sham. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 9, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 hours ago, peterms said: And the drive to get them registered will continue, ready for next time. In marketing terms, the tories are trying to squeeze the most out of a declining customer base, and Labour are developing new customers. The eclipse of the tories starts here. Will take many years, but they must be extremely worried about the end of young voter disengagement - it spells disaster for them. I'm not sure I agree, really on the "declining customer base" - I don't think it works like that, anyway. Even assuming that "pensioners" is the Tory base, there's a growing number and will be for a long time to come. As for tories being eclipsed - that would be extremely nice, but they're way more cynical. They will s Simply adopt a few superficially appealing (or genuinely appealing) policies for students, then carry on as normal, or what passes for normal, these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said: A anti-abortion party with 300,000 votes can form government with their 10 seats, yet a party with 500,000 votes and one seat gets no say. Our system is a sham. is there a webpage yet showing how Parliament would look under PR or AV ? I did a google but only got 2105 results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: A anti-abortion party with 300,000 votes can form government with their 10 seats, yet a party with 500,000 votes and one seat gets no say. Our system is a sham. How would PR make any difference - ok the greens could get 5 seats - so what ? - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 minute ago, blandy said: I'm not sure I agree, really on the "declining customer base" - I don't think it works like that, anyway. Even assuming that "pensioners" is the Tory base, there's a growing number and will be for a long time to come. As for tories being eclipsed - that would be extremely nice, but they're way more cynical. They will s Simply adopt a few superficially appealing (or genuinely appealing) policies for students, then carry on as normal, or what passes for normal, these days. Do you not think we are heading to a point whereby joe public wouldn't believe them if they did that this time? It feels like there is a groundswell of change coming? Not enough yet, by any means, but that seems to be the direction. If labour can continue their current trajectory and the Tories don't turn this around, things could be very different in 12 months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 9, 2017 Moderator Share Posted June 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Xann said: IDS is regretting bumping off those OAPs. That's a ludicrous assertion, Dave. IDS capable of regret? - I don't think so! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, blandy said: They will s Simply adopt a few superficially appealing (or genuinely appealing) policies for students free Ernesto T-Shirt with every University place ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: is there a webpage yet showing how Parliament would look under PR or AV ? I did a google but only got 2105 results Well considering Lab/tory got close on 80% of the votes - I don't think it would make much difference. Sure the greens\ukip would get a couple of extra seats - but what difference would that make when it comes to house of commons votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: free Ernesto T-Shirt with every University place ? Free Fox hunting at Eton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 9, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, hippo said: Well considering Lab/tory got close on 80% of the votes - I don't think it would make much difference. Well, yeah people generally vote for Labour/Tory as a vote for anything else is a complete waste of time, apart from in a specific set of constituencies. A fairer voting system would see people voting for the party they want to, rather than the party they think has a realistic chance of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, hippo said: Well considering Lab/tory got close on 80% of the votes - I don't think it would make much difference. Sure the greens\ukip would get a couple of extra seats - but what difference would that make when it comes to house of commons votes. would it have changed the outcome in any seats though ? quite a lot were under 50% so 2nd pref votes would have come into play for example ... where UKIP votes went to Lab / Con their second vote pref would have been interesting ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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