Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

You’re exaggerating an otherwise fair point there.

Ukrainians obviously played a significant role in the Soviet Union and had many famous scientists (as you’d expect from the second largest country in the USSR) but it clearly wasn’t a bigger overall contributor than Russia itself, a much larger country with four times the population and far greater natural resources.

 

Intelligentsia-wise many people argue it was. 

Heart valves, jet engines, helicopters, the discovery of the immune system, liquid fuel space rockets, the world's largest plane +++ are just a small part of the things that were invented in Ukraine by Ukrainians.

Yes Russia had/has resources, but Kyiv and Kharkiv in particular have always been some of the most inventive places in the Soviet union and later in independent Ukraine. Russia's factories produced mainly copies of British and American WW2 tanks up until Uralvagonzavod revamped their schematics based on the schematics greatly influenced by Nicolay Popov's mostly Ukrainian team of military technicians in the 60s.

There's a reason why Russian tanks seem like they're from the 70s, it's because they mostly are even if the shell looks like a T-90. Once the Soviet Union broke apart it also lost most of its capable R & D techs, you see some of the effect of that on how capable their newest weapons are. The T-14 hasn't worked, the Su-57 hasn't been seen or heard of, the newest variants of MBTs are going up like kindling and the Russian navy's total neglect of anti-radar technology leaves them open to pretty much being taken out by hobby-craft.

Edited June 19 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

3 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Intelligentsia-wise many people argue it was. 

Heart valves, jet engines, helicopters, the discovery of the immune system, liquid fuel space rockets, the world's largest plane +++ are just a small part of the things that were invented in Ukraine by Ukrainians.

Yes Russia had/has resources, but Kyiv and Kharkiv in particular have always been some of the most inventive places in the Soviet union and later in independent Ukraine. Russia's factories produced mainly copies of British and American WW2 tanks up until Uralvagonzavod revamped their schematics based on the schematics greatly influenced by Nicolay Popov's mostly Ukrainian team of military technicians in the 60s.

There's a reason why Russian tanks seem like they're from the 70s, it's because they mostly are even if the shell looks like a T-90. Once the Soviet Union broke apart it also lost most of its capable R & D techs, you see some of the effect of that on how capable their newest weapons are. The T-14 hasn't worked, the Su-57 hasn't been seen or heard of, the newest variants of MBTs are going up like kindling and the Russian navy's total neglect of anti-radar technology leaves them open to pretty much being taken out by hobby-craft.

You could cherry-pick a random bunch of anecdotes to say Scotland was the intellectual center of the British Empire, too, but you’d still be wrong. There’s an awful lot of famous Scottish scientists and war heroes you can post to, but when all is considered they’re still not the dominant part of the Empire.

The Ukrainians didn’t come anywhere close to inventing the helicopter, so I’m not sure why you’re using that example. And even among Soviet helicopters they were mostly designed by Russians in Russia (like the Mi-1, Mi-8, or the Hind). The highest profile Ukrainian designer was Sikorsky who designed helicopters in America, not in Ukraine.

Similarly, Kalashnikov was Russian, as was Mikoyan who designed most of the Soviet jet fighters. Sakharov who developed the Soviet A-Bomb. And so on, ad infinitum. There’s been loads of incredibly influential Russian scientists and engineers.

The limitations of current Russian technology are because Russia is a corrupt police state set up to benefit the elites rather than the country as a whole, whereas Ukraine is fighting a war for their survival and is much more focused on its own national interest. Ukrainian scientists would be doing equally badly in the same situation.

[magnkarl]

17 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

You could cherry-pick a random bunch of anecdotes to say Scotland was the intellectual center of the British Empire, too, but you’d still be wrong. There’s an awful lot of famous Scottish scientists and war heroes you can post to, but when all is considered they’re still not the dominant part of the Empire.

The Ukrainians didn’t come anywhere close to inventing the helicopter, so I’m not sure why you’re using that example. And even among Soviet helicopters they were mostly designed by Russians in Russia (like the Mi-1, Mi-8, or the Hind). The highest profile Ukrainian designer was Sikorsky who designed helicopters in America, not in Ukraine.

Similarly, Kalashnikov was Russian, as was Mikoyan who designed most of the Soviet jet fighters. Sakharov who developed the Soviet A-Bomb. And so on, ad infinitum. There’s been loads of incredibly influential Russian scientists and engineers.

The limitations of current Russian technology are because Russia is a corrupt police state set up to benefit the elites rather than the country as a whole, whereas Ukraine is fighting a war for their survival and is much more focused on its own national interest. Ukrainian scientists would be doing equally badly in the same situation.

I'm talking about Sikorsky who developed his prototypes in Ukraine and fled when the communists enacted the red terror on Ukraine.

Kurchatov, the inventor of the first Soviet nuclear and hydrogen device, not Sakharov, was educated in Crimea by Ukrainian professors. Mikoyan was Armenian.

The point is that even though Russia imported scientists and development from their satellites and conquered territories, it does show that it's not necessarily Russia that have developed the things that they claim are theirs. It's fairly similar in many regards to how other empires have behaved.

Edited June 20 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

51 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I'm talking about Sikorsky who developed his prototypes in Ukraine and fled when the communists enacted the red terror on Ukraine.

Kurchatov, the inventor of the first Soviet nuclear and hydrogen device, not Sakharov, was educated in Crimea by Ukrainian professors. Mikoyan was Armenian.

The point is that even though Russia imported scientists and development from their satellites and conquered territories, it does show that it's not necessarily Russia that have developed the things that they claim are theirs. It's fairly similar in many regards to how other empires have behaved.

Sorry, you are indeed correct about Mikoyan being Armenian. I was thinking of his cofounder Gurevich when I said he was Russian. But that still means one of them was Russian and neither was Ukrainian.

Kurchatov was Russian too, and spent the vast majority of his career working in Russia (he only spent three years studying at university in Crimea). You can’t claim him in the Ukrainian column.

Its perfectly true to say Russia likes to claim the achievements of the USSR in the name of Russia even though many famous Soviet figures were actually from other parts of the Union, including many from Ukraine. If you’d said that I’d have liked it and moved on.

You didn’t, though. As usual you took it a step further and tried to claim Ukraine was the actual driving force behind the USSR, which it obviously wasn’t. It was an important constituent of the USSR but (unsurprisingly given the size of its population) Russia contributed more overall.

[magnkarl]

14 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Sorry, you are indeed correct about Mikoyan being Armenian. I was thinking of his cofounder Gurevich when I said he was Russian. But that still means one of them was Russian and neither was Ukrainian.

Kurchatov was Russian too, and spent the vast majority of his career working in Russia (he only spent three years studying at university in Crimea). You can’t claim him in the Ukrainian column.

Its perfectly true to say Russia likes to claim the achievements of the USSR in the name of Russia even though many famous Soviet figures were actually from other parts of the Union, including many from Ukraine. If you’d said that I’d have liked it and moved on.

You didn’t, though. As usual you took it a step further and tried to claim Ukraine was the actual driving force behind the USSR, which it obviously wasn’t. It was an important constituent of the USSR but (unsurprisingly given the size of its population) Russia contributed more overall.

My overall feeling is that people overestimate what Russia invented and underestimate what its conquered territories invented, all in order to paint this superiority complex that it constantly uses to justify its war in Ukraine.

Who do you think invented the Katyusha and the rockets for Russia's space programme? Langemark from Starobilsk, Ukraine and Valentin Glushko of Odessa. The examples are numerous. Langemark's name and inventions weren't rehabilitated properly until 1991 as Russia has stolen intellectual property and shot people for it for over 100 years.

Edited June 20 by magnkarl

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

The pecking order these days

 

[Genie]

Going cap in hand to North Korea is as bad as it gets. 

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

Going cap in hand to North Korea is as bad as it gets. 

Certainly puts Gibraltar 0:0 Wales in to perspective.

[Genie]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Certainly puts Gibraltar 0:0 Wales in to perspective.

The good thing about the 0:0 is that is almost nobody noticed.

[chrisp65]

17 minutes ago, Genie said:

The good thing about the 0:0 is that is almost nobody noticed.

This appears to include the FAW and Noel Mooney. 

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

19 hours ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

The pecking order these days

 

 

[Genie]

1 hour ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

The exact moment Putin realised the invasion was a bad idea.

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, Genie said:

The exact moment Putin realised the invasion was a bad idea.

In the time he sat there listening to this horrid show of NKPOP, Ukraine set ablaze two more refineries with drones. Russia now has to import refined products made from Russian oil from other nations at steep prices as it's running a growing deficit.. 

Karma's a ¤#"%!

And the US just lifted its ban on use of weapons outside of Belgorod, so now Ukraine can attack Russian troops in Russia no matter where they're coming from with HIMARS.

Edited June 21 by magnkarl

[Genie]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

And the US just lifted its ban on use of weapons outside of Belgorod, so now Ukraine can attack Russian troops in Russia no matter where they're coming from with HIMARS.

Long overdue. If they can be reasonably justified as part of the Ukraine operation then they are fair game imo.

Russian troops should not be allowed to be “in den” when the entirety of Ukraine goes to bed each night not knowing if they’ll be blown to bits whilst they sleep.

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

bye-bye

[Anthony]

3 hours ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

bye-bye

Big bang. Very smoke. I love it. Don't think it's an ammo dump though. I read elsewhere it was fertiliser, which would make sense. If it was ammo, there would be multiple explosions, rather than just the one.

[Captain_Townsend]

God but I despise Putin.

[sidcow]

3 hours ago, Captain_Townsend said:

God but I despise Putin.

It's too late now Nigel

[Genie]

8 hours ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

bye-bye

Looks like it’s a warehouse where Russia were launching Iranian made drones from.

[Genie]

Russia vowing revenge on the USA as the missiles (ATACMS) which struck Sevastopol in Crimea over the weekend and killed 4 people were supplied by America… but more shocking to me at least, Russians are STILL going on holiday to Crimea to chill on the beach. It must be very cheap. I bet travel insurance doesn’t cover that.