BleedClaretAndBlue Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 Hmmm, China now engaging in some sort of peace talks for the two sides - just about when a ton of tanks are due to arrive. I wonder if this signals the start of a negotiated end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 35 minutes ago, Jareth said: Hmmm, China now engaging in some sort of peace talks for the two sides - just about when a ton of tanks are due to arrive. I wonder if this signals the start of a negotiated end? Hopefully 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2023 33 minutes ago, Jareth said: Hmmm, China now engaging in some sort of peace talks for the two sides - just about when a ton of tanks are due to arrive. I wonder if this signals the start of a negotiated end? There will be no negotiated end unless Russia withdraws back to pre-2014 borders. The Ukrainian people won't let Zelensky negotiate for anything less, they've invested thier lives and their blood into defending their homeland, there is no way they'll accept anything else And Chinas 12 point plan is nonsense designed to help Russia. An immediate end to unilateral sanctions, keeping supply chains stable etc and some of the points are just waffle to fill space - abandoning the cold war mentality 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 23 minutes ago, Jareth said: Hmmm, China now engaging in some sort of peace talks for the two sides - just about when a ton of tanks are due to arrive. I wonder if this signals the start of a negotiated end? I don't see that happening. Ukraine won't accept anything proposed other than a complete withdrawal at the moment, which Russia won't agree to. If anything Ukraine should be upping the ante soon enough, so why negotiate from a position of weakness when your about to get a serious injection of firepower to even the odds on the battlefield. My guess is China will play the mediator for their own gain and not that of Ukraine and this will go on because it's not ready to end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2023 8 minutes ago, bickster said: The Ukrainian people won't let Zelensky negotiate for anything less, Additionally, I don't think Putin can settle for some kind of climbdown. It'd be the end of him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, blandy said: Additionally, I don't think Putin can settle for some kind of climbdown. It'd be the end of him. Yes, that too, very much so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 When two opposing leaders are in a position where they are not able to change direction the only thing that can happen is a lot of people will die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 Where is this China plan being reported? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 24, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 24, 2023 43 minutes ago, blandy said: Additionally, I don't think Putin can settle for some kind of climbdown. It'd be the end of him. This is the rock and hard place. It's impossible to see him winning from here unless he just goes Nuclear..... Which will be the end of everything. He's got to find some way out for himself because he must know he's not winning from here. They couldn't manage it when they had the full set of professional soldiers and full complement of prime armour and weapons. They've lost most of that whilst Ukraine have got better and better weapons with more trained soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2023 1 minute ago, sidcow said: he must know he's not winning from here Hmmm. Unlike the West, he is much less subject to public opinion, and anyway he is able via oppression and media censorship and control to manipulate the story the Russian public sees and hears. So he doesn't have to think short term. He will know things are nowhere near going to plan, but he'll also believe he can outlast the West. He's not arsed about troops getting killed, he's not arsed about casualties amongst civilians. Things which would appall western public opinion in his situation are simply of no concern. He also knows that his unhinged rhetoric and utter lies that he tells are preposterous, but he doesn't care. If the families of dead Russian troops believe they died in a worthy cause of defending Russia against the West and NATO, that makes them more likely to support the war, rather, than as would be the case in the West of families being less supportive. As long as he is seen as "strong" that's all that matters. If he's seen as weak, he's toast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) I think anyone who expects a negotiated end to this conflict anytime soon is going to be in for a shock. Everyone is in far too deep now including our own governments in Europe. It's precisely why I think things will still get worse before getting better, there is still a lot of people to die, and the end of this war is going have serious repercussions because someone won't be happy. Hopefully that'll be the Russians working shit out inhouse and not the Countries surrounding the border or because of NATO involvement. What Putin has done, he's taken Russia and it's citizens, after being quite stable for a time and literally raped it in 12 months, in true mafia style. Using it to commit a crime against a neighbour who has also been left scarred for ever with many thousands of people never to recover. There is no walking away from that. He's a peasant with power and an angry mind, trying to always play the tough guy and tough guys just don't do that shit. I think it's why elites have always looked down on him. I think whatever happens, Putin has to be removed for this to end because his ego will dictate so and the depth of anger towards him expects it. Edited February 24, 2023 by avfc1982am Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2023 19 minutes ago, Genie said: Where is this China plan being reported? In the news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted February 24, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 24, 2023 24 minutes ago, Genie said: Where is this China plan being reported? Here you go. That's let me Google that for you. Sorry, but it's widely out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, trekka said: Here you go. That's let me Google that for you. Sorry, but it's widely out there. I looked on BBC, Sky News, Yahoo news and nobody was running it on their front pages. I assumed it would be big news. Edited February 24, 2023 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 24, 2023 17 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: Putin has to be removed for this to end Either that, or he will be removed because it has ended. Either way he's done for. That's the problem - he has nothing to lose. His only route out is to win, which he won't. No one can win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 6 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: The Leopard 2 tank is considered to be one of the most advanced and effective main battle tanks in the world, and it has several features that could make it a valuable asset for Ukraine in the event that they acquire them in the numbers I would like to see. Firstly, the Leopard 2 is known for its excellent armor protection, which is critical in modern warfare, particularly in urban environments where tanks may be vulnerable to ambushes and improvised explosive devices (IEDs). The Leopard 2's armor has been designed to withstand a wide range of threats, including shaped charges, kinetic energy penetrators, and RPGs. Secondly, the Leopard 2 has a powerful and accurate main gun, which is capable of engaging targets at long range with high precision. The tank's gun can fire a range of different types of ammunition, including armor-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS), high-explosive anti-tank (HEAT), and high-explosive fragmentation (HEF) rounds, giving it flexibility in different combat scenarios. Thirdly, the Leopard 2 is equipped with advanced fire control systems, including a laser rangefinder, thermal imaging sensors, and a stabilized gunner's sight, which allow it to engage targets with a high degree of accuracy and speed. Compared to what they have now, it's a different world. It's harder to miss. Overall, if Ukraine were to acquire Leopard 2 tanks, they could potentially provide significant benefits in terms of increased firepower, mobility, and protection for their armed forces. However, it is important to note that tanks alone are not sufficient to win a war, and a comprehensive strategy that includes effective tactics, logistics, and support systems is necessary to achieve military success. The question is also, how do you stop them from a Russian point of view? If they attack one of these with a normal RPG, that's just not good enough and how do do this without giving your positions away? (+NATO demands infantry / air artillary support with the tanks). Used properly, Russia might literally run away. Thanks mate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted February 24, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted February 24, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Genie said: I looked on BBC, Sky News, Yahoo news and nobody was running it on their front pages Ah yeah, sorry. Here's the Sky report for example. Quote However, a 12-point peace plan for Ukraine unveiled by Beijing demands: • The sovereignty of all countries is respected • Abandoning the Cold War mentality • Ceasing hostilities • Resuming peace talks • Resolving the humanitarian crisis • Protecting civilians and prisoners of war (PoWs) • Keeping nuclear power plants safe • Reducing strategic risks • Facilitating grain exports • Stopping unilateral sanctions • Keeping industrial and supply chains stable • Promoting post-conflict reconstruction Edited February 24, 2023 by trekka 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 Just now, blandy said: Either that, or he will be removed because it has ended. Either way he's done for. That's the problem - he has nothing to lose. His only route out is to win, which he won't. No one can win. I totally agree but this is the reason he will exhaust this war with everything he can and try to extend it elsewhere. The real question is how far are Russians willing to back him on this path and how many have to die before enough is enough.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted February 24, 2023 Share Posted February 24, 2023 So basically China want a ceasefire so that Russia can claim what they already hold, and give them time to re arm, and prepare for the next wave. Do they think Ukraine are stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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