bannedfromHandV Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 minute ago, villakram said: A vote about "peace" and the Ukrainian conflict at the UN today. The US is fully onboard, so I guess that means talking about peace no longer makes you a horrible Putin loving reprobate. Should lead to plenty of confusion as people adapt to the new playbook. Peace is the desired outcome for everyone. I don’t understand your post. But then I don’t understand 75% of your posts so that’s nothing new. You write this with an air of ‘I told you so’ about it, on what basis? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: Peace is the desired outcome for everyone. I don’t understand your post. But then I don’t understand 75% of your posts so that’s nothing new. You write this with an air of ‘I told you so’ about it, on what basis? Reading is tough, but keep at it. E.g., twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1627580621613572096 See the comments there for a nice recent example, and this is a long way from the only person who was getting slaughtered for anything not along the lines of "Russia bad, let's arm Ukraine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Russia pulling out of new START will be interesting as there was a lot of chatter about bringing China in last time around, which was roundly resisted by many for various happy status quo reasons. I expect the next treaty post Ukraine to be quite the complicated beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, villakram said: Russia pulling out of new START will be interesting as there was a lot of chatter about bringing China in last time around, which was roundly resisted by many for various happy status quo reasons. I expect the next treaty post Ukraine to be quite the complicated beast. They haven't actually pulled out. They've suspended co-operation with inspections, temporarily, They may well pull out but they haven't yet We're currently only at the threatening to do something stage and Russia has threatened an awful lot of things in the last year and done very few of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted February 23, 2023 22 minutes ago, villakram said: Reading is tough, but keep at it. E.g., twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1627580621613572096 See the comments there for a nice recent example, and this is a long way from the only person who was getting slaughtered for anything not along the lines of "Russia bad, let's arm Ukraine". Putin Shill quotes Putin shill what exactly is your point? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post HAL Posted February 23, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2023 Most the world want peace between Ukraine and Russia but not at the expense of Ukraine losing five regions. And in 5 years time losing more. Also Russia can secure peace whenever it wants by withdrawing 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted February 23, 2023 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2023 53 minutes ago, villakram said: A vote about "peace" and the Ukrainian conflict at the UN today. The US is fully onboard, so I guess that means talking about peace no longer makes you a horrible Putin loving reprobate. Should lead to plenty of confusion as people adapt to the new playbook. The resolution also calls for Russia to withdraw from Ukraine's territory 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Just now, HAL said: Most the world want peace between Ukraine and Russia but not at the expense of Ukraine losing five regions. And in 5 years time losing more. Also Russia can secure peace whenever it wants by withdrawing That’s the gist of the proposed UN resolution. Russia can opt for peace any time it chooses by withdrawing from Ukraine. This is what the resolution calls for: Quote The document "reaffirms its commitment to the sovereignty, independence, unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, extending to its territorial waters." The measure also "reiterates its demand that the Russian Federation immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders, and calls for a cessation of hostilities." https://amp.dw.com/en/un-general-assembly-readies-vote-on-ukraine-peace-resolution/a-64799465 Not sure why anyone supporting Ukraine would disagree there. The usual suspects will abstain of course. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, villakram said: Reading is tough, but keep at it. E.g., twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1627580621613572096 See the comments there for a nice recent example, and this is a long way from the only person who was getting slaughtered for anything not along the lines of "Russia bad, let's arm Ukraine". The UN has condemned Russia’s war again today, not asked for a peace where Ukraine gives territories to Russia like Roger the plonker wants. I don’t know what you’re trying to argue here? Edited February 23, 2023 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sidcow Posted February 23, 2023 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2023 2 hours ago, villakram said: Reading is tough, but keep at it. E.g., twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1627580621613572096 See the comments there for a nice recent example, and this is a long way from the only person who was getting slaughtered for anything not along the lines of "Russia bad, let's arm Ukraine". Russia invaded it's next door neighbour in the face of zero threat from them. Russia is bad. Ukraine needs to defend itself from the aggressor. Anything else is just noise. You can put forward 10,000 arguments but none of them hold water for the tens of thousands of innocent deaths Russia has directly and deliberately caused. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Yeah, there’s not really two ways of looking at this, Russia is the aggressor and thought they could blitzkrieg themselves some land. Yes, we can discuss how they were given the green light by not being punished for Crimea but that is very secondary. This needs to be ramped up now or ‘the west’ will do its usual trick of enjoying the first phase then getting bored then worrying about the price then leaving a shit stain where it was once playing the hero. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: worrying about the price I think this conflict will be unique in that I don't think there is a limit on the money. The location of Ukraine and the timing means Russia are *****ed. The US aren't messing about, the training and getting the weopons there is as fast as possible in the circumsrtances. At no point will the US allow Russia to gain land from this. The US are all in on this one IMO which is really good long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: I think this conflict will be unique in that I don't think there is a limit on the money. The location of Ukraine and the timing means Russia are *****ed. The US aren't messing about, the training and getting the weopons there is as fast as possible in the circumsrtances. At no point will the US allow Russia to gain land from this. The US are all in on this one IMO which is really good long term. Yep, this one will be different. I guess time will tell. Genuinely want you to be right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: At no point will the US allow Russia to gain land from this. I wouldn't be surprised if they get to keep Crimea after all is said and done. Can't see Russia ever conceding to a total defeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 2 minutes ago, villa89 said: I wouldn't be surprised if they get to keep Crimea after all is said and done. Can't see Russia ever conceding to a total defeat. I think the Ukraine will lose the Donbas and I think they may just get Crimea back. If they can take back the south eastern side of the Dnipro river and reclaim the whole of Kherson and Zaphorozhzhia back, Crimea becomes a serious possibility. It doesn't look likely at the moment but if Putin's regime go caput at some point, Crimea will be there for the taking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: I think the Ukraine will lose the Donbas and I think they may just get Crimea back. If they can take back the south eastern side of the Dnipro river and reclaim the whole of Kherson and Zaphorozhzhia back, Crimea becomes a serious possibility. It doesn't look likely at the moment but if Putin's regime go caput at some point, Crimea will be there for the taking. At this rate Russia’s far flung oblasts will be there for the taking. Donbas is the least of the regimes concern when Dagestan, Irkutsk, Chechnya, Yekaterinburg etc revolts. I don’t see Russia keeping anything come the next counter attack. The only card they have left is nuclear and Vlad’s bigger brother has already stated that this is off the table. Edited February 23, 2023 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 Crimea is very difficult. Russia will not give it up without doing something reckless but at the same time they can’t realistically hold it without holding the current land bridge along the Ukrainian coast which is obviously a not an option for Ukraine. It is going to be interesting to see how Crimea gets resolved. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 24 minutes ago, magnkarl said: At this rate Russia’s far flung oblasts will be there for the taking. Donbas is the least of the regimes concern when Dagestan, Irkutsk, Chechnya, Yekaterinburg etc revolts. I don’t see Russia keeping anything come the next counter attack. The only card they have left is nuclear and Vlad’s bigger brother has already stated that this is off the table. I wish I could share your optimism however, for Ukraine to take back everything in one counter attack we would need to see a monumental change of momentum and fortune, and the capitulation of the Putin regime. I just don't see that happening for a while and if it does, maybe another year or two at least. Putin will stay in Ukraine until he is removed or his forces are, one or the other. I just think we are quite a way off that happening. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 5 hours ago, villakram said: Reading is tough, but keep at it. E.g., twitter.com/rogerwaters/status/1627580621613572096 See the comments there for a nice recent example, and this is a long way from the only person who was getting slaughtered for anything not along the lines of "Russia bad, let's arm Ukraine". Okay, so being as you’re so much better read than I, it appears. Put forward a solution, or even a notion of a solution as to what exactly ‘the west’ should do at this point, or at any point in the last 12 months. There’s little to no reasonable train of thought other than Russia is bad, very bad in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 And in 1.5 years there will be a Republican president (maybe Trump) who might side largely side with Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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