Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[MaVilla]

24 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Yeah, it was a great show! Can't believe it was nearly 20 years ago. Also surprised I couldn't find a video of that section, but unless I'm missing it it's not on YT.

here you go mate, timestamped for you!

 

 

[sparrow1988]

49 minutes ago, lp_villa830 said:

The fact that they've experienced what the Ukrainians are currently going through makes it even worse in my eyes that they're showing support for Putin. 

Where is the empathy? 

But they experienced it at the hands of NATO. That won't be easy to forget.

Also, after the fall of the USSR, the country shrank to approx. half the size it was, from Yugoslavia to what it is today, losing the control over Croatia, Bosnia & Herz, Montenegro, Macedonia and then there's Kosovo too. A lot of Serbs are still very unhappy about this. They've voted a populist party in to power and they've been there for 10 years. A party that was formed after splitting from a far-right party. If there is one country, or at least a significant portion of a country's people, in the region after Belarus, where Putin is likely to find support, then it is likely to be in Serbia.

[sparrow1988]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Oddly, if those Chinese people desperate to see a game were to nip across the border into Russia, they could watch it there. I don't think the Premier League have done anything in terms of sanctions on the Russian broadcasters.

 

The Russians might have though if the PL has openly said that it is planning to broadcast pro-Ukraine messages.

Also, "nip across the border" made me laugh.

[nick76]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

No, let's just not have a no-fly zone. Let's try to make sure that all of the actions we undertake have the least possibility of escalation.

I'm really not sure you know what 'escalation' means, but it means 'making the situation more serious (worse)', not 'there is no situation at all'.

So basically you’re accepting that Russia will take over Ukraine because that’s what is going to happen at current rate.  I understand that view because ‘escalating’ has much bigger implications but people have to accept if we continue as we are then Russia get Ukraine.  If that’s ok by people then so be it.

What happens if he goes after one or two more non-NATO countries afterwards, does that make a difference? What happens if he goes after a small NATO country?  Just wondering where the line is that our side escalate a bit.  It will obviously be different for different people based on personal views and or agreements.  Kinzinger made a valid point whether you agree or not but maybe a no fly zone is not appropriate yet but we will likely get there at some point.

[avfc1982am]

30 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

But it's doing him no favours with Russia. They are already thinking he personally wants WW3, by bringing Nato into war. There is no need to condem Nato, this is only giving Russia brownie points.

I think personally NATO involvement is inevitable. Not if but when and NATO are giving themselves time to get things together. I think the die is cast. 

[trekka]

16 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

If there is one country, or at least a significant portion of a country's people, in the region after Belarus, where Putin is likely to find support, then it is likely to be in Serbia.

I'm not posting a link to it as it makes me feel but there is a video of the Serbs coming out in their droves waving Russian flags. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by trekka

[trekka]

Why a no-fly zone might hinder Ukraine rather than help it. 

BBC

The UK defence secretary says a no-fly zone over Ukraine would not just increase the danger to Nato allies - who might come into direct confrontation with Russian planes - but could also hamper Ukraine's ability to defend itself.

On a visit to Estonia and Denmark this week, Ben Wallace told the BBC that Russia had so far not been successful in destroying Ukraine's air defences and air force.

He said Ukrainian aircraft and drones were "one of the few tools" the Ukrainians had to hit Russian forces from distance - and Wallace said: "If you have a no-fly zone, it works for both sides."

He said it could "possibly hand an advantage to the Russians", who could still target cities with their long-range artillery and missiles from land.

"I think people should ask themselves the question before they suggest these things, what would it mean on the ground and what does it mean for Nato, when there are other ways to help Ukrainians defend themselves from the air," he says.

Western nations have been supplying Ukraine with hundreds of "Stinger" anti-aircraft missiles in recent weeks.

Ukraine's President Zelensky has publicly called for a no-fly zone. But Wallace said he'd been in daily contact with Ukraine's defence minister who, he said, had not asked for one.

[nick76]

4 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

I think personally NATO involvement is inevitable. Not if but when and NATO are giving themselves time to get things together. I think the die is cast. 

Yep agreed, as much as we don’t want to be, it’s only a matter of time now.

[sne]

 

Quote

The ties between the two countries go beyond weapons shipments. According to Russia’s Defense Minister Sergey Shoygu, “Cooperation between Russia and Serbia has become dynamic and multifaceted in recent years.” Last year, the Serbian military conducted two significant military exercises with Russia’s armed forces, the Joint Response 2021 exercise in May and Slavic Shield 2021 in October.

Six NATO states, including four that are also EU members, border Serbia and are increasingly wary about how it is bulking up militarily. In response, for example, Croatia has spent €1 billion on a major fighter purchase. During a dispute with Kosovo last fall over license plates, Belgrade sent tanks and fighters to the border, and the presence of NATO’s force in Kosovo helped keep tensions from boiling over.

While its policy toward Serbia has not changed, the United States has taken notice. A 2019 report from the Department of Defense (DoD) explained how serious the situation has become. According to DoD, “Serbia provides the most permissive environment for Russian influence in the Balkans.”

Serbia has intensified its security and political ties not only with Russia, but with China, too, across the economic, political, and military arenas. Today, China considers the country to be a major entry point  to Europe for its Belt and Road Initiative. Speaking last year about Serbia’s relations with China, President Aleksandar Vučić said: “We have very good cooperation between our countries and we want to bring it to a higher level if possible...Our friendship is honest and big and no wonder we call it ‘steel’.” Evidencing the military component of the relationship, Belgrade has purchased an air-defense system and armed military drones from Beijing.

https://www.gmfus.org/news/serbia-should-be-sanctioned-if-it-does-not-scale-back-military-ties-russia

[nick76]

Anyway I’m off down the Villa now, hope they have more fight in them than some of comments on here.

I’ll be waving

 

while some of you will be waving

 

 

 

 

 

 

just joking! Enjoy the game all.

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Yep agreed, as much as we don’t want to be, it’s only a matter of time now.

Nato have already said it's not their war, so no chance they will enter, unless Russia invade a Nato country. An yes they will watch Russia take Ukraine, as unfortunate as it is, they will then keep a very close eye on Russia's next step. Russia will not invade a Nato country, as they realise the consequences of doing this, Nato would decimate Russia in more ways than 1.

As for a no fly zone, agree with above, that this will hinder Ukraine, as they will have no idea who is up there, where as now it's only going to be the enemy forces, so can shoot down almost anything in the skys.

[bickster]

56 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

But it's doing him no favours with Russia.

I really don't think Zelensky is looking to curry favour with Moscow at this point

[avfc1982am]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

curry flavour

Fixed

[KentVillan]

27 minutes ago, nick76 said:

So basically you’re accepting that Russia will take over Ukraine because that’s what is going to happen at current rate.  I understand that view because ‘escalating’ has much bigger implications but people have to accept if we continue as we are then Russia get Ukraine.  If that’s ok by people then so be it.

What happens if he goes after one or two more non-NATO countries afterwards, does that make a difference? What happens if he goes after a small NATO country?  Just wondering where the line is that our side escalate a bit.  It will obviously be different for different people based on personal views and or agreements.  Kinzinger made a valid point whether you agree or not but maybe a no fly zone is not appropriate yet but we will likely get there at some point.

I don’t think it’s at all clear that Russia will take over Ukraine, though. They’re having huge problems progressing, even without a no fly zone.

As Putin overcommits to Ukraine, he also opens himself up to separatist movements in other parts of Russia / Russian puppet states. This could easily unravel for him even without direct conflict with NATO.

[trekka]

The Russians might be in a real pickle. 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by trekka

[TDR V2]

War crimes, cluster bombing residential areas, shelling a nuclear plant. Displacing over a million people from their homes. 

I'm wondering what Putin has to do to annoy the 'civilised world'.

 

 

[trekka]

2 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said:

War crimes, cluster bombing residential areas, shelling a nuclear plant. Displacing over a million people from their homes. 

I'm wondering what Putin has to do to annoy the 'civilised world'.

 

 

He has already done it.  The civilised world is not turning a blind eye to this one and whilst we might not be sending the military directly into Ukraine, this backlash against the Russian state is pretty amazing to be honest. 

2022 boycott of Russia and Belarus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_boycott_of_Russia_and_Belarus

[TDR V2]

Just now, trekka said:

He has already done it.  The civilised world is not turning a blind eye to this one and whilst we might not be sending the military directly into Ukraine, this backlash against the Russian state is pretty amazing to be honest. 

2022 boycott of Russia and Belarus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_boycott_of_Russia_and_Belarus

I hope its enough, I really do

[villa4europe]

4 minutes ago, trekka said:

He has already done it.  The civilised world is not turning a blind eye to this one and whilst we might not be sending the military directly into Ukraine, this backlash against the Russian state is pretty amazing to be honest. 

2022 boycott of Russia and Belarus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_boycott_of_Russia_and_Belarus

I do think it's maybe the best way to stop it... What will be the straw that will break the camels back, I know I'd be fuming if these things had happened to me, Putin’s war would have changed my day to day life, I'd be protesting 

Do the sanctions and western companies pulling out of Russia cause the Russian people to defeat Putin? That has to be the best solution and hopefully it will work

I know apple and Microsoft have done some things but can they outright stop their products from working? 

[trekka]

3 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said:

I hope its enough, I really do

The sanctions are really going to bite and already we're hearing the murmurings of a desperate man:

Sky News

Putin: Western sanctions akin to declaration of war

Vladimir Putin has warned that Western sanctions on Russia are akin to a declaration of war, as he defended his invasion of Ukraine.