Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 3, 2022 I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 1 minute ago, Anthony said: Captured alive and going to the Hague? I imagine Russia would want to handle it domestically. Do they even acknowledge the ICC? Most countries who regularly break their rules don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Just now, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? Will Putin stop there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 10 minutes ago, sne said: Yeah this conflict is not gonna end by the Russians getting a bunch of tanks or planes blown up. That's just people dying. It's the sanctions and the important people and the regular people turning on Putin that will end it. Hopefully he'll not blow the world up on his way out. Sadly it only ends for a positive Ukrainian result with an internal coup Then its a gamble what nutter takes over 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Just now, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelensky out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? I disagree, this war needs to be won here, now. The longer Ukraine holds out the more chance Russia loses due to sanctions and trouble back in Russia. If Putin is seen to fail here it is a success for the world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 9 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said: Pretty powerful thread here It's spot on. While the west dither Putin becomes more and more emboldened, Whilst the west act all pious and shocked Putin drags everyone deeper into the mire. People say Hitler was different. Only the narrative was different and the scale of damage to the world is yet to be determined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, avfcDJ said: Will Putin stop there? No. He has a taste for conquest regardless of the human cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, CVByrne said: I disagree, this war needs to be won here, now. The longer Ukraine holds out the more chance Russia loses due to sanctions and trouble back in Russia. If Putin is seen to fail here it is a success for the world. I get that point of view, but I think it's possible for this to be won without all of the deaths that entails - I think he loses by sanction, by confiscation, by the wounds we're putting on Russia economically and socially much more than he does by the deaths of a bunch of teenagers in tanks, and I'd love to think it were possible to come out of this with Ukraine still intact and Putin gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? Your not recognising that Ukrainians are going to fight to the death. Nobody is going to stop that happening. Ask yourself one question. If the UK was invaded would you flee or fight for your family and friends. Especially those that cannot fight back or run for their lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? Our government are already helping their Russian sponsors with a period of grace around the sanctions. Do you think if the war stopped this government would continue with sanctions and the refusal of new donations? Not a **** chance. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 1 minute ago, avfc1982am said: No. He has a taste for conquest regardless of the human cost. I don't think that's true - for Russia, this is a reactive conflict - it's defensive not aggressive - they're not looking to take Ukraine as part of some sort of expansionism, they're looking to liberate it from a government that they see as persecuting it's Russian population. Now they might well be wrong and the response, invading Ukraine, might well be utterly insane - but I don't think conquest is what this is about - it's about paranoia and fear and the desire to be seen to remain strong and intact and important as a nation. He's a dangerous nutter, but I think the idea that he's a dangerous nutter hell bent on taking over Europe is wide of the mark. Ukraine can't win this war - they can only sacrifice themselves and take a lot of people with them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, CVByrne said: I disagree, this war needs to be won here, now. The longer Ukraine holds out the more chance Russia loses due to sanctions and trouble back in Russia. If Putin is seen to fail here it is a success for the world. He won't fail, that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 I think whatever the outcome and whoever replaces Putin, the world has seen the Russian military isn't all it was cracked up to be. That'll have repercussions for the next 20 years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 It is sadly looking like a long brewing fight that will need to be settled - of course we should try to pressure russians to settle it, Putin can't nuke his own country, but if that doesn't work then fate dictates this will go bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 14 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I think there's probably a case at this point for encouraging Ukraine to stop resisting. Get Zelenskyy out of the country and have him govern in exile but prevent the need for more deaths (on both sides) - then let the sanctions and the financial war on the oligarchs take care of the rest. Ukraine isn't going to win a war, but tens of thousands of people will die - young men on both sides - when actually the only thing that's going to move this forward is the moment when the oligarch's decide to sacrifice Putin in order to maintain their status - the war on the ground is almost immaterial in terms of its effect on Putin, it's the paper war that will ultimately topple him. At this point do we ask the Ukrainians to give up the land in the short term in order to save lives while we rid ourselves of Putin then retake the land as part of a settlement? Is that better than tens of thousands of deaths? Hmmmm. I think if Russia wins via a surrender - there will be a western backed insurgency. At that point the west supplying the arms would imo be inches away from war with Russia. Also if he feels Poland is being used a through port for those arms - how long before he threatens Poland ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 11 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: I get that point of view, but I think it's possible for this to be won without all of the deaths that entails - I think he loses by sanction, by confiscation, by the wounds we're putting on Russia economically and socially much more than he does by the deaths of a bunch of teenagers in tanks, and I'd love to think it were possible to come out of this with Ukraine still intact and Putin gone. A ceasefire will only be agreed if Ukraine agrees to cede Crimea and recognise the Donbas as a new country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 Just now, colhint said: I think whatever the outcome and whoever replaces Putin, the world has seen the Russian military isn't all it was cracked up to be. That'll have repercussions for the next 20 years. I think the high casualty rates maybe due to the the reports of Russian civilians being told to report for military duty - and then with a couple of weeks training are on the front line. Is Putin holding his best troops back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 1 minute ago, colhint said: I think whatever the outcome and whoever replaces Putin, the world has seen the Russian military isn't all it was cracked up to be. That'll have repercussions for the next 20 years. NATO was always going to have air superiority if ever there was a war with Russia which means we'd destroy his army wherever they were parked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted March 3, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 3, 2022 2 minutes ago, CVByrne said: A ceasefire will only be agreed if Ukraine agrees to cede Crimea and recognise the Donbas as a new country. A ceasefire with Putin will definitely only be agreed on those terms. Putin gotta go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 25 minutes ago, Anthony said: Captured alive and going to the Hague? That’s a close second Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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