KentVillan Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 9 minutes ago, avfc1982am said: Greed is behind every war and as much as we like to think it isn't, we just kid ourselves. Same shit different day with the poor manipulated into doing the bidding of the rich for some ridiculous reason, that more often than not has been manufactured to fit some moral standard. Greed usually a big factor, but also status, fear, wounded pride, revenge, ethnicity, religion, ideology, etc. Realistically East Ukraine is not a big enough prize economically to justify a war on this scale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 21 minutes ago, bickster said: This is an interesting read. The return of Putin shill Medvedchuck to the public arena. Carnegie Endowment for Global Peace. Putin is just going to use him as a propaganda mouthpiece for Russian TV. He's going to spout about how he speaks for the majority of Ukrainians who really want to be Russian but are too scared to oppose the Rainbow Nazi regime controlling Kyiv. You just know how it will play out the Russians are so predictable. If he ends up back in Ukraine something tells me it will be a matter of time before he's assassinated. A very short time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Greed usually a big factor, but also status, fear, wounded pride, revenge, ethnicity, religion, ideology, etc. Realistically East Ukraine is not a big enough prize economically to justify a war on this scale. I agree, but disagree... Someone always gets robbed regardless of the apparent reasoning behind any mass conflict. It's the numero uno gift of conflict and every aggressor knows it. I want, I want, I want. Taking what you want is another thing altogether. Whether it be life, Religion, Cullture, Wealth, Knowledge.... everything stems from greed. Everything that is a reaction whether pride, fear, or even revenge stems from initial greed, even in retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 23, 2023 Given all the mutterings and criticism of Germany, this might surprise a few https://twitter.com/JamWaterhouse/status/1617543035860008962?s=20&t=yi-frgmsXOWHseXiZLJ2FAhttps://twitter.com/JamWaterhouse/status/1617543035860008962?s=20&t=yi-frgmsXOWHseXiZLJ2FA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 23, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted January 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, blandy said: Given all the mutterings and criticism of Germany, this might surprise a few https://twitter.com/JamWaterhouse/status/1617543035860008962?s=20&t=yi-frgmsXOWHseXiZLJ2FAhttps://twitter.com/JamWaterhouse/status/1617543035860008962?s=20&t=yi-frgmsXOWHseXiZLJ2FA Get that going round some simpering Tory MPs and we'll be pulling support ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Given all the mutterings and criticism of Germany, this might surprise a few https://twitter.com/JamWaterhouse/status/1617543035860008962?s=20&t=yi-frgmsXOWHseXiZLJ2FAhttps://twitter.com/JamWaterhouse/status/1617543035860008962?s=20&t=yi-frgmsXOWHseXiZLJ2FA I don't think people are questioning Germany over what they've done, but more what they could do by greenlighting Countries to export their product to Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 23, 2023 11 minutes ago, blandy said: Given all the mutterings and criticism of Germany, this might surprise a few Those are the not adjusted for GDP figures iirc Also this table shows the split of types of aid and includes a %GDP figure Canda has provided more weapons and financial aid that Germany and contributed a much higher % of its GDP Germany is at about half the level of other countries, apart from France And that chart doesn't show the Baltic states which are all at about 1% of GDP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 23, 2023 14 minutes ago, bickster said: Those are the not adjusted for GDP figures iirc Also this table shows the split of types of aid and includes a %GDP figure Canda has provided more weapons and financial aid that Germany and contributed a much higher % of its GDP Germany is at about half the level of other countries, apart from France And that chart doesn't show the Baltic states which are all at about 1% of GDP Sure. I agree. It's the same source data. I just thought it interesting, as it surprised me a little that Germany has provided more Arms than France, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 47 minutes ago, blandy said: Sure. I agree. It's the same source data. I just thought it interesting, as it surprised me a little that Germany has provided more Arms than France, for example. France just likes to say they will give things, and then it doesn’t arrive. Germany isn’t as shady about it and outright admits they’re not giving tanks. Poland, the Baltics, Scandinavia and Holland are miles ahead of France and Germany, if you look at GDP. In fact I’d wager that they’ve given more of their GDP to business with Russia in the same period. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Ti's but a scratch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Those figures on contributions have Germany 4th. But probably worth noting that the EU is second, and Germany is by some distance the biggest contributor in to the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Those figures on contributions have Germany 4th. But probably worth noting that the EU is second, and Germany is by some distance the biggest contributor in to the EU. Without per capita or % of GDP adjustment it’s pretty meaningless though? Naturally the biggest country in the EU is the biggest contributor to the EU, but if we think in terms of what each country is capable of doing, Germany has been weak. Plus there is justifiable anger at them demanding Greece and co suck up severe austerity to protect the Eurozone, then when Germany stupidly decommissions its nuclear power stations and runs into a massive energy crisis, it wants to avoid the consequences of its own bad decisions (which lots of people said were bad at the time). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 23, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 23, 2023 There's also the idea that Germany was more responsible than most for creating the Russian monster in the first place. Before the war Germany imported almost half of its natural gas from Russia and was always the country cosying up to Putin as a result of that relationship 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, bickster said: There's also the idea that Germany was more responsible than most for creating the Russian monster in the first place. Before the war Germany imported almost half of its natural gas from Russia and was always the country cosying up to Putin as a result of that relationship Which was partly a consequence of Merkel's disastrous policy post-Fukushima: Look at the nuclear (red) vs natural gas (purple) splits pre-2011 (Fukushima) vs 2020. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Things are not going great for Sweden’s chances of joining NATO after a Swedish Kurdish group hung an effigy of Erdogan last week, then a Danish / Swedish politician burned a copy of the Koran outside the Turkish embassy on the weekend Suffice to say, Erdogan is not super keen to ratify Swedish membership after these stunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Getting rid of nuclear power is the only sane decision. Not the best idea to replace it with something that ends up making you beholden to Russia. But yeah, ditching nuclear was a sound idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Getting rid of nuclear power is the only sane decision. Not the best idea to replace it with something that ends up making you beholden to Russia. But yeah, ditching nuclear was a sound idea. While you have nuclear plants operating and need a clean base load power it makes sense to keep running them for their practical life span while you transition. Germany has actively shut them, then panicked and tried to restart some of them, then literally had to pull down wind turbines to make way for expanding coal mines in order to replace the power that has been lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: While you have nuclear plants operating and need a clean base load power it makes sense to keep running them for their practical life span while you transition. Germany has actively shut them, then panicked and tried to restart some of them, then literally had to pull down wind turbines to make way for expanding coal mines in order to replace the power that has been lost. I’m not defending their methodology. I’m saying it isn’t stupid to ditch nuclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Getting rid of nuclear power is the only sane decision. Not the best idea to replace it with something that ends up making you beholden to Russia. But yeah, ditching nuclear was a sound idea. I don’t agree. When a nuclear plant is up and running there’s very little reason to shut it down unless there’s a security risk. Pound for pound only water energy is close to the same carbon footprint. Shutting down nuclear to start with coal plants again is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. We’re just lucky in the UK that we have a NATO country to supply our energy or else we’d never dream of shutting down anything, and we’d probably still be burning as much coal as Poland. Judging by what I hear from Norway the cables going to Germany and UK are likely to get heavily regulated by Norway soon anyway. All they’re doing is importing ridiculous German/UK market prices to the coldest place in Europe. Edited January 23, 2023 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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