Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[tinker]

9 hours ago, bickster said:

What the flying f*** has Corbyn got to do with the war in Ukraine? He's an irrelevance. Him and his mates in the Stop the War Coalition (that'll be George Galloway too) were pushing the Kremlin line that it was all NATOs fault, even now he's saying that there should be talks. When it comes to stuff like this, he's a massive idiot and all the war in Ukraine has done is prove he and they are beyond stupid or Russian shills (in the case of Galloway its obviously the later.)

But anyway, this topic is for talking about the Russian invasion of Ukraine, not an irrlevance like Corbyn

Who's mentioned Galloway? 

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, tinker said:

Who's mentioned Galloway? 

Me, part of the Stop the War nutters that includes Corbyn, they are part of the same organisation pushing the same message.

[tinker]

8 minutes ago, bickster said:

Me, part of the Stop the War nutters that includes Corbyn, they are part of the same organisation pushing the same message.

Oh 

[magnkarl]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

Me, part of the Stop the War nutters that includes Corbyn, they are part of the same organisation pushing the same message.

There’s quite a lot of these ‘old guard’ politicians that are showing how flawed their ideology is. Apart from being likely paid by Russia (Galloway, Milne, Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Tucker Carlsson +) there’s the people that are so blindingly naive that they won’t see the flaws of their argument (Corbyn, Chomsky, parts of the German left) etc. 

Stop the war coalition has proven itself so beyond the pale on this that they’re as ridiculous as Amnesty.

Edited August 21, 2022 by magnkarl

[Mr_Dogg]

15 hours ago, Mister_a said:

Blimey…

 

14 hours ago, Genie said:

Seems like it was meant for the father

She was a word removed as well so the bomb hasn't gone to waste.

[Arj Guy]

16 hours ago, ender4 said:

Was watching BBC news and they said something along the lines of we won’t see any actual counter offensive from Ukraine to take back land until next year.

So I guess the million man army summer counter offensive was just all talk. Unfortunately for Ukraine mythical counter offensives and twitter trolling doesn’t win wars

[Mandy Lifeboats]

25 minutes ago, Arj Guy said:

So I guess the million man army summer counter offensive was just all talk. Unfortunately for Ukraine mythical counter offensives and twitter trolling doesn’t win wars

All talk?  Well......yes and no.  

I'm not sure how you aren't seeing the counter-offensive?  Ukraine is now striking military bases and supply depots  INSIDE Crimea and Russia.  

If NATO was fighting this war we would be doing exactly the same thing.  But we would be doing it with cruise missiles and stealth bombers.  Ukraine don't have any of those.  But they are doing a great job without them.  

Push back the supply depots, lengthen the supply lines. Then attack the lengthened supply lines. 

Ukraine's million man summer offensive and its achieved exactly what it was meant to.  The Russians have dug in ready to repel it and completely neglected the things that Ukraine were actually going after. 

Ukraine is fighting with modernish weapons and NATO tactics.  That does not necessitate a million untested troops rushing towards heavily fortified defensive lines. 

 

[tinker]

5 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Stop the war coalition has proven itself so beyond the pale on this that they’re as ridiculous as Amnesty.

Most soldiers sent into war would be heavily in favour of a stop the war campaign. It's easy for people and posters to say it has to be stopped because their typing it on a computer or mouthing off somewhere or other. It would be a whole different matter if it was them or their children that were the soldiers fighting Putin's war. 

[magnkarl]

54 minutes ago, tinker said:

Most soldiers sent into war would be heavily in favour of a stop the war campaign. It's easy for people and posters to say it has to be stopped because their typing it on a computer or mouthing off somewhere or other. It would be a whole different matter if it was them or their children that were the soldiers fighting Putin's war. 

You are aware that what you are typing is not true at all for Ukrainian servicemen and women right? It might be true for the side that people like Galloway and Corbyn supports (Russia), but it isn't for the people defending their homeland from rape, murder and genocide, I assure you. It's the same line of argument that Chomsky and Galloway have been using since the start of the conflict. Ukraine has no chance to chose whether or not they're in a war, that one is purely on the side that many of the Stop the War Coalition's top ranking members have been receiving money from for 20+ years. Protesting around your allotment in West London talking about how bad war is does nothing to stop Bucha happening again. It's a naive almost childish way of behaving.

You should be very careful trying to explain how people defending their homeland is feeling. The only way to stop this war is to fight in it, not accepting whatever a mad lunatic with a gun to their head is demanding.

Do you think we should've just given up after we were pushed out of mainland Europe in WW2 too because war is bad? I honestly don't understand this line of reasoning. If we had done it would mean that all Roma, Jews, intellectuals and disabled people would've been murdered in Britain too.

Attacking our weapons supply to Ukraine which they have used and keep using to prevent mass rape, murder and Bucha over and over again is directly lending a hand to Putin. It isn't 'stopping the war'. It isn't a moral high ground to complain that Ukraine are receiving weapons to defend themselves. There's one aggressor here, and it isn't the country which STWC has criticized over and over.

Edited August 21, 2022 by magnkarl

[tinker]

34 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

You are aware that what you are typing is not true at all for Ukrainian servicemen and women right? It might be true for the side that people like Galloway and Corbyn supports (Russia), but it isn't for the people defending their homeland from rape, murder and genocide, I assure you. It's the same line of argument that Chomsky and Galloway have been using since the start of the conflict. Ukraine has no chance to chose whether or not they're in a war, that one is purely on the side that many of the Stop the War Coalition's top ranking members have been receiving money from for 20+ years. Protesting around your allotment in West London talking about how bad war is does nothing to stop Bucha happening again. It's a naive almost childish way of behaving.

You should be very careful trying to explain how people defending their homeland is feeling. The only way to stop this war is to fight in it, not accepting whatever a mad lunatic with a gun to their head is demanding.

Do you think we should've just given up after we were pushed out of mainland Europe in WW2 too because war is bad? I honestly don't understand this line of reasoning. If we had done it would mean that all Roma, Jews, intellectuals and disabled people would've been murdered in Britain too.

Attacking our weapons supply to Ukraine which they have used and keep using to prevent mass rape, murder and Bucha over and over again is directly lending a hand to Putin. It isn't 'stopping the war'. It isn't a moral high ground to complain that Ukraine are receiving weapons to defend themselves. There's one aggressor here, and it isn't the country which STWC has criticized over and over.

I haven't said that the Ukrainians shouldnt defend themselves they obviously should, conscripted Russian soldiers are getting killed in their droves in this war as well as innocent Ukrainians.

The evil in this is Putin and his lies and this glorification of war from him and others is killing thousands of normal people. 

The way out of this will not be with guns and bombs.

[bickster]

26 minutes ago, tinker said:

The way out of this will not be with guns and bombs.

the only way out of this without those, is Russia completely leaving Ukraine and that includes Crimea, do you see any way that is going to happen?

 

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, bickster said:

the only way out of this without those, is Russia completely leaving Ukraine and that includes Crimea, do you see any way that is going to happen?

 

Assassinate Putin.

[magnkarl]

31 minutes ago, tinker said:

I haven't said that the Ukrainians shouldnt defend themselves they obviously should, conscripted Russian soldiers are getting killed in their droves in this war as well as innocent Ukrainians.

The evil in this is Putin and his lies and this glorification of war from him and others is killing thousands of normal people. 

The way out of this will not be with guns and bombs.

Your equation only works if all people abide by those rules. They never do. It's a naive line of thought that I would've thought Corbyn and his ilk would be past by now. I get Galloway as he's obviously on the take, but there are people in STWC that are not and should know better. It's turned into an Anti-West movement, rather than a 'stop the war' movement.

Without a defense or alignment in our current day and age you're #¤%& as Russia, China or US under George W. Bush will feck you over.

In peace, prepare for war, in war, prepare for peace.

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

Assassinate Putin.

Who would be able to do that?

It won't come about because of talks thats for sure

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

Assassinate Putin.

I don't think it'd solve the issue. The issue for Russia is deep running, they need to be severely defeated over a long period to get these imperialistic genocidal thoughts out of them. There are people around Putin who would just keep it up at the Russian people's expense.

[Genie]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

I don't think it'd solve the issue. The issue for Russia is deep running, they need to be severely defeated over a long period to get these imperialistic genocidal thoughts out of them. There are people around Putin who would just keep it up at the Russian people's expense.

It’s hard to know and you could well be right. They know the danger of telling the boss he’s wrong so will appear to be as mad as he is for their own well being.

There is a chance with Putin out of the way they could do a huge U-turn, massive apology whilst pinning everyone on the dead ex-president. Then ask for a gradual acceptance back into the world.

50:50 I’d say.

[Mr_Dogg]

The inner circle including Putin, running things in Russia are idealogues.

Most people in this life are realists, and most people who run the world are driven by profit. If that circle could be broken up, there could be a quick change in direction.

Putin is richer than anyone could ever be, so he's now purely motivated by the idea of shaping the world around his ideas.

[KentVillan]

3 hours ago, tinker said:

Most soldiers sent into war would be heavily in favour of a stop the war campaign. It's easy for people and posters to say it has to be stopped because their typing it on a computer or mouthing off somewhere or other. It would be a whole different matter if it was them or their children that were the soldiers fighting Putin's war. 

That’s bollocks. War is hell, but that doesn’t mean the logical conclusion is mindless pacifism. It’s the Ukrainians who have been begging for weapons, aircraft, troops and supplies to push back against Russia’s invasion.

People who pretend a negotiated settlement is just there waiting on the table are living in cloud cuckoo land, and turning it into a cultural war against other outsiders is a way of ignoring the Ukrainian people’s own agency. Of course they want the war to end, but they don’t want that to mean Russia now has control over half their territory.

[sidcow]

4 hours ago, Arj Guy said:

So I guess the million man army summer counter offensive was just all talk. Unfortunately for Ukraine mythical counter offensives and twitter trolling doesn’t win wars

I mean,  this was a headline on BBC and SKY News only yesterday 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62608526

Ukraine's Crimean fightback having 'psychological impact' on Russia

Ukrainian strikes on Crimea are having major psychological and operational effects on Moscow's forces, Western officials have told journalists.

Quote

Explosions at the Saki airbase on 9 August and other assaults have put more than half of the Black Sea fleet's naval jets out of action, they said.

The fleet has a revered history, but it has suffered a series of humiliations since the invasion began in February.

Officials said the setbacks have forced it to adopt a defensive posture.

Quote

The fact that explosions in Crimea - a place previously considered to be well beyond the reach of any Ukrainian attack - were watched by thousands of Russian tourists, many of whom have since fled Crimea back into Russia, has had a psychological effect in Moscow, officials told the media.

Quote

But on Wednesday, UK defence officials said that the Kremlin's plans have been "undermined" by the navy's failure to assume full control over the Black Sea.

 

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

the only way out of this without those, is Russia completely leaving Ukraine and that includes Crimea, do you see any way that is going to happen?

 

Absolutely as soon as Corbyn and Galloway have a decent eye to eye chat with Putin and explain it's all terrible what's going on.  Putin will agree wholeheartedly and immediately withdraw his troops wondering why no one had brought this to his attention before.