Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[Sam-AVFC]

15 minutes ago, PussEKatt said:

Why is the rest of the world applying sanctions in drips and drabs ? why didnt the rest of the world hit Russia with the hardest sanctions possable right from the start.Even now Germany is pissing about.Hit them with everything we have and do it now.They do not deserve anything less than that.

What do you mean "rest of the world"? Australia themselves announced new sanctions just today.

[PussEKatt]

Thats what I mean.The whole world ( including Australia ) are dragging their collective feet over this,FFS.

[Davkaus]

If you hit them with the strongest possible sanctions right from the beginning, how do you escalate from there?

[sidcow]

19 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

If you hit them with the strongest possible sanctions right from the beginning, how do you escalate from there?

 

[avfc1982am]

It is the sun so it could be fake but it might not be. 

[bickster]

So Russia invaded Ukraine and made the impossible happen

They got Pink Floyd to reform, new single in aid of Ukraine out on streaming services on Friday.

(David Gilmour has a Ukrainian daughter-in-law and therefore half Ukrainian grandchildren)

[avfc1982am]

 

****Disclaimer**** I do not in anyway follow the sun. Only the real one in the sky. 

[mjmooney]

19 minutes ago, bickster said:

So Russia invaded Ukraine and made the impossible happen

They got Pink Floyd to reform, new single in aid of Ukraine out on streaming services on Friday.

Money, it's a gas. 

[Lichfield Dean]

22 minutes ago, bickster said:

So Russia invaded Ukraine and made the impossible happen

They got Pink Floyd to reform, new single in aid of Ukraine out on streaming services on Friday.

(David Gilmour has a Ukrainian daughter-in-law and therefore half Ukrainian grandchildren)

Well that'll cheer everyone up then

[bickster]

5 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Well that'll cheer everyone up then

Quote

A couple of weeks ago, Pink Floyd’s guitarist and singer David Gilmour was asked if he’d seen the Instagram feed of Andriy Khlyvnyuk, frontman of Ukrainian rock band BoomBox. Gilmour had performed live with BoomBox in 2015, at a London benefit gig for the Belarus Free Theatre – they played a brief, endearingly raw set of Pink Floyd songs and Gilmour solo tracks – but events had moved on dramatically since then: at the end of Feburary, Khlyvnyuk had abandoned BoomBox’s US tour in order to fight against the Russian invasion.

On his Instagram, Gilmour found a video of the singer in military fatigues, a rifle slung over his shoulder, standing outside Kyiv’s St Sofia Cathedral, belting out an unaccompanied version of Oh, the Red Viburnum in the Meadow, a 1914 protest song written in honour of the Sich Riflemen who fought both in the first world war and the Ukrainian war of independence. “I thought: that is pretty magical and maybe I can do something with this,” says Gilmour. “I’ve got a big platform that [Pink Floyd] have worked on for all these years. It’s a really difficult and frustrating thing to see this extraordinarily crazy, unjust attack by a major power on an independent, peaceful, democratic nation. The frustration of seeing that and thinking ‘what the **** can I do?’ is sort of unbearable.”

The result is Hey Hey, Rise Up!, a new single by Pink Floyd that samples Khlyvnyuk’s performance, to be released at midnight on Friday with proceeds going to Ukrainian humanitarian relief.

Guardian

[mjmooney]

I thought you mean the impossible had happened, i.e. Gilmour /Mason/Waters reformed. Nah, just Gilmour and Mason. 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I thought you mean the impossible had happened, i.e. Gilmour /Mason/Waters reformed. Nah, just Gilmour and Mason. 

Waters hasn't been in Pink Floyd for a long time and he's a grade A word removed these days.

 

EDIT: If you read that Guardian article I linked to, it'll give you a good impression as to why he wasn't even asked

 

[sne]

 

[Lichfield Dean]

36 minutes ago, bickster said:

Waters hasn't been in Pink Floyd for a long time and he's a grade A word removed these days.

 

EDIT: If you read that Guardian article I linked to, it'll give you a good impression as to why he wasn't even asked

 

He is definitely the world's grumpiest man

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, Lichfield Dean said:

He is definitely the world's grumpiest man

Ermm.  Have you not read VT properly? 

[OutByEaster?]

11 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I think this sort of condescending Western thinking is deadly for small countries around the world. If the thoughts you apply here are pushed out then essentially the rule of brute force, nazisim and genocide wins the day no matter what. Ukraine wants to fight, it doesn't need this laissez faire attitude from us that it's better for them if they give up. That means that Putin will come back in another 5 years and take the rest of their country.

It's exactly that condescending Western thinking I was looking to avoid.

About a week ago, Ukraine were talking about negotiating a peace with Russia that included the permanent transfer of Crimea - not a situation that's particularly palatable to Western minds, but a decision that Ukraine needs to make for itself. If that is what Ukraine want, then we shouldn't be encouraging them to continue a conflict for our benefit - sacrificing Ukraine to hurt Russia is no good to Ukraine.

Thankfully it would appear from reporting today that Ukraine are very keen to continue the fight and press home their advantage in order to strengthen their negotiating position - again, that should be their choice and we should support them in it. If they want arms, we should provide arms, if they want to negotiate a peace, even one with compromises we don't like, that should also be their choice.

The priority should be Ukraine, and thankfully we seem to be aligned with that right now more than we were a week or so ago.

The secondary objective in punishing Russia and discouraging it from anything similar anywhere in future is where the sanctions come in. In my opinion, the war should end as soon as the Ukrainians want it to - the sanctions should remain until Putin is gone.

That's not condescending, it''s the opposite, it's allowing Ukraine to decide and backing them.

 

[OutByEaster?]

13 hours ago, blandy said:

Whoa! You seem to be holding some (maybe subconscious, maybe conscious) biases there. Firstly that it’s in Ukraine’s interest to end the shooting quickly, (having lost part of their land to the invader, who may start war again in a year…) and secondly that the US is somehow prolonging the war out of selfish interests.

Ukraine is repeatedly asking for more weapons from the USA and West, Ukraine is saying they will not give up, or give up their territory. It’s Ukraine’s decision alone as to what’s in their interest and negotiations are not seriously on the table, unfortunately, just Russian trolling.

The US is much more worried about China than Russia.

Ukraine had been talking as recently as last week about a negotiated peace which included the sacrifice of some land, including Crimea - I'm just suggesting that we should support them in self determination rather than push them to sacrifice for the benefit of harming Russia. Thankfully by todays reporting, that's not what they now want to do, and again, we should be backing them in their decision - it's for them to decide - if they want arms, send em arms.

 

[OutByEaster?]

23 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Given all the whataboutery doing the rounds at the moment…

I’m interested in any calm, reasoned perspectives on where Russia’s war crimes in Ukraine rank against the worst things the Western powers have done.

I’m not an apologist for US aggression , but my instinct is that you have to go quite a long way back (maybe Hiroshima & Nagasaki?) to find anything as bad as what the Russians are doing at the moment. (Edit: and yes I realise there was a different context to the atom bombs, Japan being an aggressor, etc. But massive civilian death count)

People saying Iraq / Afghanistan are wide of the mark IMO… yes, those were low points for the west (esp Iraq), but the civilian death counts were lower and certainly not systematic ethnic cleansing.

But open to hearing about genuine examples of similar horrors. Just trying to put this in perspective… how bad exactly is it? It feels like it’s exceptionally bad

Sorry, I'm a bit late to the war crimes competition, but how about East Timor?

 

[Awol]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

About a week ago, Ukraine were talking about negotiating a peace with Russia that included the permanent transfer of Crimea - not a situation that's particularly palatable to Western minds, but a decision that Ukraine needs to make for itself. 

Yes, absolutely. Zelensky’s caveat was that any deal would need endorsement by referendum, but it’s still right that they were saying this. 

After Bucha, Zelensky said that all the Russian army deserves is death. I think he spoke truly for 100’s of millions across Ukraine and the free world.

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, Awol said:

After Bucha...

It does seem that his visit there has really strengthened his resolve. It's a big turning point in Ukrainian attitudes - they are a resilient, tough people on what I've seen during this conflict - I wouldn't want them as an enemy.