Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[peterw]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

Here's some news to you. Russian military doctrine has been about smashing hospitals since the 90's. In Aleppo they targeted civilian infrastructure before attacking military targets. It's the way they operate. The Russians hope that this will break the morale of the people and leave the populace without medical attention. They do this on purpose in every conflict they've been in since the 90's.

and what source do you have to confirm Russian military doctrine is to target hospitals and the like? I seriously doubt it, although willing to accept that i could be wrong as I know noting about their military doctrine or its implementation.

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, peterw said:

and what source do you have to confirm Russian military doctrine is to target hospitals and the like? I seriously doubt it, although willing to accept that i could be wrong as I know noting about their military doctrine or its implementation.

Look at the pictures of Grozny and Aleppo earlier in this thread. There isn't a war involving Russia where Russia hasn't been bombing hospitals and civilian infrastructure as soon as things got conventionally 'harder'.

They hit a TV transmittor in Kiev on the dime, why on earth do you think several missiles (it's a massive building) hitting 'in the wrong' place is even likely?

Here's a picture of the hospital for you:

All 6 large buildings in this photo are destroyed by missile fire - starting with the building in the top edge of the picture, maternity ward, children's hospital and palliative care unit.

Edited March 10, 2022 by magnkarl

[LondonLax]

14 minutes ago, peterw said:

" Some expert" who? We were told previously that the op[posite is true. What was the type of missile? Was it laser guided? Did it come from the ground or from the air? Was it fired from sea (I'm (not sure where the hospital was). There are many variables to consider and yes it is an act that would break international humanitarian law if deliberate. But, we really don't know that it was, we can assume, we can guess, but we don't know.

I don't think the Russians have precision guided missiles, they are too expensive. The Russian army still use 'dumb bombs'.

[peterw]

so you have photos from an unknown source in Syria? Do you have some comparative sources of US/UK bombs to confirm that their missiles never miss their targets?

[peterw]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Look at the pictures of Grozny and Aleppo earlier in this thread. There isn't a war involving Russia where Russia hasn't been bombing hospitals and civilian infrastructure as soon as things got conventionally 'harder'.

They hit a TV transmittor in Kiev on the dime, why on earth do you think several missiles (it's a massive building) hitting 'in the wrong' place is even likely?

Here's a picture of the hospital for you:

All 6 large buildings in this photo are destroyed by missile fire - starting with the building in the top edge of the picture, maternity ward, children's hospital and palliative care unit.

yes, it's pretty clear what the hospital is and is a massive mistake if that is what it is. Will you confirm what all the other buildings are in and around this photo? So, we can confirm whether they were aiming at something else nearby?

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, peterw said:

so you have photos from an unknown source in Syria? Do you have some comparative sources of US/UK bombs to confirm that their missiles never miss their targets?

This war isn't America's or UK's. Stop the whataboutery.

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, peterw said:

so you have photos from an unknown source in Syria? Do you have some comparative sources of US/UK bombs to confirm that their missiles never miss their targets?

Seriously? Are you now trying to say you don't believe that Aleppo is rubble from Russian bombing? Wow.

BBC:

The Guardian:

New York Times:

Middle East Eye:

I can go on for days, credible enough sources for you?

Edited March 10, 2022 by magnkarl

[peterw]

Dear me - no, what I'm saying, and what I've been saying, is that if you look at bombing in Syria, iraq or any bombing from all sides you'll see this type of example. Us bombs ahve hit civilian targets; so have UK bombs, that doesn't mean its targetted. Syria is a different situation though because of lot of targets in civilian areas were at those where intel pointed them to let's say 'military targets'. Sadly, it is never possible to ensure the safety of life for those who would be ordinarily protected under international humanitarian law. That happens on both sides, and did.

But let's just focus on Ukraine. Straying too far is allowing to conflate a different point to which I'm making. That is simply to offer caution when we see pictures without knowing the full acoount.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

Just to play devil’s advocate for a second, I am sure that Russians will claim that the Ukrainian army were storing weapons/personnel at the location in question and thus it was a legitimate target. 

[peterw]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

This war isn't America's or UK's. Stop the whataboutery.

But you're comparing Russia in Syria to now as evidence that they are using the same tactics. i'm saying that it is just as likely that we do not know if the Russians are deliberatley targetting civilians because by the same token we must have done the same thing if we just believe photos? And we're the good guys, right?

[magnkarl]

Russian lead elements from having surpassed Kharkiv now trying to go into Kiyv from the East. It's like Russia doesn't learn from their mistakes and keeps driving straight into javelin fire.. 

 

[peterw]

1 minute ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Just to play devil’s advocate for a second, I am sure that Russians will claim that the Ukrainian army were storing weapons/personnel at the location in question and thus it was a legitimate target. 

And to continue with this - you could be absolutely right - they have 3 options.

Admit it and say screw you

Admit it and apologise

Admit it and and go with your option.

 And to take your devil's advocate line a step further, if not at the location but close by, what if they're right?

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, peterw said:

But you're comparing Russia in Syria to now as evidence that they are using the same tactics. i'm saying that it is just as likely that we do not know if the Russians are deliberatley targetting civilians because by the same token we must have done the same thing if we just believe photos? And we're the good guys, right?

Again, Russia is the bad guy. Yes we've invaded countries and bombed countries. This thread and war is about Russia invading a sovereign nation with no grounds whatsoever. Russia bombed Syria, Russia is bombing civilian areas in Ukraine. Not US/UK.

[bickster]

Just now, peterw said:

Dear me - no, what I'm saying, and what I've been saying, is that if you look at bombing in Syria, iraq or any bombing from all sides you'll see this type of example. Us bombs ahve hit civilian targets; so have UK bombs, that doesn't mean its targetted. Syria is a different situation though because of lot of targets in civilian areas were at those where intel pointed them to let's say 'military targets'. Sadly, it is never possible to ensure the safety of life for those who would be ordinarily protected under international humanitarian law. That happens on both sides, and did.

But let's just focus on Ukraine. Straying too far is allowing to conflate a different point to which I'm making. That is simply to offer caution when we see pictures without knowing the full acoount.

Quite a few of us on here are looking at sources much wider than the BBC / ITV / Ch4. That you aren't is down to you.

If you want to look at independent verification of incidents in Ukraine then this tool is useful Russian Ukraine Monitor Map (extract of resource not possible)

It is contributed to by independent verifiers such as Bellingcat and the Conflict Intelligence Team among others . It is run by the Center for Information Resilience

[LondonLax]

Russian tanks being picked off on the west side of Kiev. It's not artillery doing that though. 

[ml1dch]

 

 

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Again, Russia is the bad guy.

Interesting that you’ve brought Grozny into the debate over the last page or two. Were the Russians there violent suppressors of a group seeking self determination or a sovereign nation defending it’s territory against terrorists.

Does Chechnya have any greater right to independence than Crimea, Donetsk or Luhansk?

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, peterw said:

And to continue with this - you could be absolutely right - they have 3 options.

Admit it and say screw you

Admit it and apologise

Admit it and and go with your option.

 And to take your devil's advocate line a step further, if not at the location but close by, what if they're right?

The Russians have confirmed that they did not accidentally bomb the hospital. They are saying they targeted a children’s hospital because they believe Ukrainian military were using it as a base.

They have a long record of war crimes where they deliberately target civilians, announce evacuation corridors, and then fire on the corridors.

Be careful of using dubious unverified sources. But also, listen carefully to the wording of the more reputable sources. This morning BBC Radio 4 were describing the two sides fighting over Mariupol as the ‘Russians’ and the ‘nationalists’. From an organisation that prides itself on slow but verified news, I thought that was really quite offensive.

[peterw]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Quite a few of us on here are looking at sources much wider than the BBC / ITV / Ch4. That you aren't is down to you.

If you want to look at independent verification of incidents in Ukraine then this tool is useful Russian Ukraine Monitor Map (extract of resource not possible)

It is contributed to by independent verifiers such as Bellingcat and the Conflict Intelligence Team among others . It is run by the Center for Information Resilience

Which is why I say to urge caution for those that are just relying on sources such as the one that you mention. It's best to rely on the facts as we know them not to try and look for an answer that may not be there. It may well be true that the Russians are indiscriminately killing. But we do not know that, and it is fair to say that the Ukrainians will highlight the hospital (and of course others, it is by no means a one off in terms of hitting civilian infrastructure/areas), as they don't need context as the Russians are giving that by the initial invasion. 

[peterw]

3 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Interesting that you’ve brought Grozny into the debate over the last page or two. Were the Russians there violent suppressors of a group seeking self determination or a sovereign nation defending it’s territory against terrorists.

Does Chechnya have any greater right to independence than Crimea, Donetsk or Luhansk?

The problem here is that UN mandates are still promoting state soveriegnty as predominant when looking at who provides internal and individual security. part of that are that states are able to decide how to act domestically or internally. It's a grey area which proponents of the principle of Human Security are unable (currently) to change.