Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

26 minutes ago, bobzy said:

I think differing viewpoints are great - but coming into the thread and stating you have evidence of all these war crimes(?) Ukraine are committing (yet detailing none of it?), seemingly being more "sided" with the Russian invasion (even if playing Devil's advocate) and then getting offended and running away when challenged is a bit... for want of a better term, US-2021-Trump-supporter-esque.

More selective reporting/recording.

The poster made a comment along the lines of " I doubt Russians will have missiles falling on them ".

I made a tongue in cheek comment saying " Unless they live in Donbass that is " etc. ( Referring to recorded times in the past, when Russians in Donbass, have actually been bombarded by Ukraine , among other things)

I was then asked a question, and responded.

It's public and factual information, aspects of " proof " of that, is readily available. I didn't " come in the thread " claiming to " have proof of all these war crimes ".

This is the type of thing, someone would just enter the thread, and believe as well ffs.

What I added , was that I also had proof of  " Ukrainian Propaganda " , which I do. I'm sure there is also lot's of Russian propaganda, but that's not what people are seeing and responding to, is it?

Among peers, the most common response to it is " Well, I mean, then the moral dilemma is, if propaganda is then right , if it is being used for morale and to win support from the masses, in the face of an invader " . Which is a fair point, and is up for debate.

Either way it's inconsequential. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Lichfield Dean]

1 hour ago, HKP90 said:

Agreed. The threat is almost as powerful as the weapon, which I suppose is the point. Man if I could go back in time and meet Oppenheimer I would smack that motherf***er in the face. 

Fun fact: it was two genius physicists at the university of Birmingham that worked out that you could make atomic bombs with uranium.

Following the discovery of nuclear fission in uranium, scientists Rudolf Peierls and Otto Frisch at the University of Birmingham calculated, in March 1940, that the critical mass of a metallic sphere of pure uranium-235 was as little as 1 to 10 kilograms (2.2 to 22.0 lb), and would explode with the power of thousands of tons of dynamite. The Frisch–Peierls memorandum prompted Britain to create an atomic bomb project, known as Tube Alloys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_contribution_to_the_Manhattan_Project

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

More selective reporting/recording.

The poster made a comment along the lines of " I doubt Russians will have missiles falling on them ".

I made a tongue in cheek comment saying " Unless they live in Donbass that is " etc. ( Referring to recorded times in the past, when Russians in Donbass, have actually been bombarded by Ukraine , among other things)

I was then asked a question, and responded.

It's public and factual information, so the " proof " of that, is readily available. I didn't " come in the thread " claiming to " have proof of all these war crimes ".

This is the type of thing, someone would just enter the thread, and believe as well ffs.

What I added , was that I also had proof of, was " Ukrainian Propaganda " , which I do. I'm sure there is also lot's of Russian propaganda, but that's not what people are seeing and responding to, is it?

Among peers, the most common response to it is " Well, I mean, then the moral dilemma is, if propaganda is then right , if it is being used for morale and to win support from the masses, in the face of an invader " . Which is a fair point, and is up for debate.

Either way it's inconsequential. 

Apologies - propaganda rather than war crimes.

Either way, don't run away when challenged.  This is a great thread for discussing the horrific situation in Ukraine and there is no point scoring going on at all.  A fair few people in here are trying to give factual accounts rather than anything Ukraine-biased (although, let's face it, any sane person would want the Russians to lose heavily ) and the whole thread is fascinating.

[Delphinho123]

52 minutes ago, Awol said:

If you do one thing today, watch this video to the end. 

 

 

This is fantastic. 

[bannedfromHandV]

59 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I have an ending, but it's a bit far fetched.

Picture the scene from the Wire where Marlo Stansfield bumps off Proposition Joe - only it's Abramovich in the Kremlin standing over Putin saying "I wasn't born to play the son Vlad".

Meanwhile, he bumps in half a billion pounds of his Chelsea sale money to Ukraine to help sweeten a peace between him and Zelenskyy, bangs in a couple of billion of Putin's hidden dough for reparation, withdraws the troops, greases some palms in the West, tells them they can trust good old Roman the banker, keeps hold of Crimea as a sort of victory for the Russian people and asks Ukraine to remain independent in exchange for the opening up of Russian markets to Western companies as a conduit to the Chinese.

"The Chinese? They cool with it, Vlad you be up to mischief in no time, close your eyes, it won't hurt none. There. Relax. Breathe easy."

 

I’ve thought about a couple of wildly unlikely endings to this too.

One is Russia deciding they’re no longer part of Europe but instead are part of Asia - how this could / would happen I have no idea but it would further the divide between Russia and ‘the west’.

Another is, either through Putin backing down or being ousted / killed, Russia joining NATO (which would essentially nullify NATO as it only exists to stand up to Russia essentially) and truly becoming an open and free democratic state.

I highly doubt either will happen and instead Putin will take Ukraine in its entirety leading to at least heightened tensions for the next two decades or longer.

[trekka]

25 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Putin will take Ukraine in its entirety leading to at least heightened tensions for the next two decades or longer.

Highly probable (in them taking Ukraine in its entirety) but the "victory" will only result in Russia going back to the dark ages.  No international transactions (except for say via fax or prolonged checks), no international air travel, no international foreign investment and nobody wanting to buy their gas.  People will take a run on the banks leaving them without cash and the beauty about the sanctions is that the Russian Government can't just go print more. Their military will be decimated and they will have no means to invest in new technology.  Even if the likes of the UAE still continue air transport there for the time being, that won't go on.  I strongly hold the belief that this will not go on for decades - Russians are by and large, highly intelligent people who value humanity and friendships with other cultures (I base this off of my travels meeting many of them).  They will not stand for it.   This isn't like the days of the Yeltsin era, this is the age of the internet.  The Russian public are wise and is the reason why Putin is now desparate to immediately push through laws to throw those who report stories against his Government into the Gulag for 15 years. 

I applaud the world for the action they are taking.  It might not resolve the conflict immediately but it will be the downfall of the Putin regime. 

Слава Україні! Героям слава! Slava Ukraini!

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by trekka

[trekka]

Just watching a live conference from Zelenskyy.  He looks white as a ghost  - keep going big man.  The world is hoping the best. 

[sidcow]

14 minutes ago, trekka said:

Highly probable (in them taking Ukraine in its entirety) but the "victory" will only result in Russia going back to the dark ages.  No international transactions (except for say via fax or prolonged checks), no international air travel, no international foreign investment and nobody wanting to buy their gas.  People will take a run on the banks leaving them without cash and the beauty about the sanctions is that the Russian Government can't just go print more. Their military will be decimated and they will have no means to invest in new technology.  Even if the likes of the UAE still continue air transport there for the time being, that won't go on.  I strongly hold the belief that this will not go on for decades - Russians are by and large, highly intelligent people who value humanity and friendships with other cultures (I base this off of my travels meeting many of them).  They will not stand for it.   This isn't like the days of the Yeltsin era, this is the age of the internet.  The Russian public are wise and is the reason why Putin is now desparate to immediately push through laws to throw those who report stories against his Government into the Gulag for 15 years. 

I applaud the world for the action they are taking.  It might not resolve the conflict immediately but it will be the downfall of the Putin regime. 

Слава Україні! Героям слава! Slava Ukraini!

 

I hope you're right. 

The interesting question is who takes over from Putin? 

Hopefully if it's a revolution they somehow see their way to installing proper democracy and enter the free world for once and for all. 

If Putin is toppled internally or just dies/retires in a decade or two, do we just get Putin Mk2? 

Edited March 4, 2022 by sidcow

[TDR V2]

6 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I hope you're right. 

The interesting question is who takes over from Putin? 

Hopefully if it's a revolution they somehow see their way to installing proper democracy and enter the free world for once and for all. 

If Putin is toppled internally or just dies/retires in a decade or two, do we just get Putin Mk2? 

I'm betting a certain Donald suddenly declares himself fully Russian and goes for it

[trekka]

5 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I hope you're right. 

The interesting question is who takes over from Putin? 

Hopefully if it's a revolution they somehow see their way to installing proper democracy and enter the free world for once and for all. 

If Putin is toppled internally or just dies/retires in a decade or two, do we just get Putin Mk2? 

Reports suggest that Putin is already wobbling (when the sanctions haven't really kicked in or expanded) with his comments earlier.  

Sky News

"I would also advise them not to escalate the situation, not to introduce any restrictions. 

"We fulfil all our obligations and will continue to fulfil them. We do not see any need here to aggravate or worsen our relations. 

"I think everyone must think about how to normalise relations, co-operate normally and develop relations normally."

[Mozzavfc]

49 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I’ve thought about a couple of wildly unlikely endings to this too.

One is Russia deciding they’re no longer part of Europe but instead are part of Asia - how this could / would happen I have no idea but it would further the divide between Russia and ‘the west’.

Another is, either through Putin backing down or being ousted / killed, Russia joining NATO (which would essentially nullify NATO as it only exists to stand up to Russia essentially) and truly becoming an open and free democratic state.

I highly doubt either will happen and instead Putin will take Ukraine in its entirety leading to at least heightened tensions for the next two decades or longer.

Interestingly the USSR tried to join NATO in 1954, as a way to stop it's expansion into eastern Europe

Guardian

Quote

A year after Stalin died in 1953 and a year before the Warsaw Pact was established in 1955, the Kremlin asked to join Nato, according to a secret file which President Vladimir Putin unveiled last night, writes Ian Traynor.

In a coup de thétre which will have Cold War historians breaking out in a sweat, Putin brandished what he described as a recently declassified 'note' from the Soviet government to western leaders from 1954.

It stated that Moscow was 'holding to its intention of entering negotiations on joining' Nato, formed five years earlier.

 

[SuperTed]

1 hour ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Fun fact: it was two genius physicists at the university of Birmingham that worked out that you could make atomic bombs with uranium.

Following the discovery of nuclear fission in uranium, scientists Rudolf Peierls and Otto Frisch at the University of Birmingham calculated, in March 1940, that the critical mass of a metallic sphere of pure uranium-235 was as little as 1 to 10 kilograms (2.2 to 22.0 lb), and would explode with the power of thousands of tons of dynamite. The Frisch–Peierls memorandum prompted Britain to create an atomic bomb project, known as Tube Alloys.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_contribution_to_the_Manhattan_Project

Could they drink in town though? 

[Xela]

It's all rather depressing isn't it. Read a story of Russian soldiers gunning down a family in a car, including 2 young children (6yo and a new-born). They were just trying to get out of the country

How on earth can anyone do that? 

[bickster]

 

[Jareth]

They've shut down facebook. Silver linings and all that

[trekka]

11 minutes ago, Jareth said:

They've shut down facebook. Silver linings and all that

More evidence that the Russian Government are getting panicked about what their own people might think (or do) when they see the truth. 

The BBC however will not be silenced via the World Service.  I hope Dorries has seen this. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by trekka

[ender4]

3 hours ago, Sam-AVFC said:

You really need to spend less time on Facebook.

You're in a thread that has been full of knowledgeable people parsing and posting information since this all started. Pretty much anything unreliable is immediately challenged with opposing sources provided. I can't put into words how much better and more quickly informed I have been than everyone around me having this thread to reference.

From what I can see you basically jumped in yesterday to post these main thoughts:

• A non-sovereign 'someone' has orchestrated this whole thing.
• It's Nato's fault for not negotiating with Russia.
• You have evidence of war crimes by Ukraine, but you're going to keep that to yourself.
• Cuba, which did have nuclear missiles (unlike Ukraine) and did not host a war (unlike Ukraine) is your ultimate 'whatabout the west?!'
• Anyone who challenges any ill-informed views is 'hAVinG a MeltDOwN'.

Seriously, just slow down a second and don't take people challenging stuff you post as a personal attack. It's likely there are just people here far better informed than yourself - like there are me, which I've been hugely grateful for.

He’s basically gone down an Internet conspiracy rabbit hole and doesn’t want to hear a balanced nuanced argument which is what everyone else in this thread have been doing.

This thread is the most balanced place I’ve seen on the Internet.

[Mark Albrighton]

In case it hasn’t been posted. 

 

[Jareth]

Surprised more has not been made of the fact that anti-war elements in the FSB have been thwarting assassination attempts on Zelenzky. Clearly there are senior elements in Russia who are interested in prolonging Zelenzky - for what reason? Maybe Putin's time is coming one way or another...

[Villa87]

Fantastic thread this. I haven’t contributed too much as hard to find the time / research that others have committed.