Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[magnkarl]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/zelensky-survives-three-assassination-attempts-in-days-xnstdfdfc

Quote

Volodymyr Zelensky survives three assassination attempts in days

Wagner mercenaries in Kyiv have sustained losses during their attempts and are said to have been alarmed by how accurately the Ukrainians had anticipated their moves. A source close to the group said it was “eerie” how well briefed Zelensky’s security team appeared to be.

Turns out Russia's special kill groups aren't all that special when they don't target journalists, women, the gay community and dissidents. Now they're facing trained operators and getting whopped.

[nick76]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

I also don't want WW3

Completely agree but what is our goal now? We know Putins goal, what is ours? If ours isn’t to stop him then what are we doing?  People are dying, the longer this goes on the more people will die. It’s like a mate getting beat up in a fight by a much stronger bloke, we either step in and stop it or we pull our mate out of it.  We currently just seem to be coaching at the sides, giving a few tips, our mate is getting a few digs in because of it but is going to end up more badly beaten up because of it.

I don’t want WW3 either.  I also don’t think what we are doing looks like it’s doing much apart from delaying it and explosions by nuclear plants aren’t the most comforting scenes.

[bobzy]

4 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You don't think there are innocent Russian civilians, who have nothing to do with the war, who are and will suffer as well?

Although I've realised the narrative is that, to show our humanity, and how much we care about the people in Ukraine, is also to show how little we care about average people in Russia. Brilliant! They've been blanket dehumanised in the court of public opinion.

It's always " us Vs them " ... whenever I see this whipped up Mobb mentality, it makes me realise as a human race, we haven't evolved much at all.

If there are Russians who wanted to donate to their OWN people who might be suffering via war and sanctions, as much as some hate it, it should be their perogative.

In the grand scheme of things, Oligarch money is a drop in the bucket, of what is costs to be at war.

You start just deciding who's assets can get stripped, you are on a slippery slope.

This leaves the door open for governments then being able to indiscriminately do this to anyone.

First bold bit, yes of course.  Putin has no real consideration for his own country - it's all about him.  There will be millions of Russians being massively impacted by all of this who don't want any part of any war.  They will be experiencing hardship from the various economic sanctions put against the state of Russia.

Second bold bit though, the assets are being stripped from very wealthy people who are heavily entwined with the Russian government.  They aren't just "rich people" who are being targeted.  They'll have benefitted from plenty of illegal government activity for years and years and that influence will go both ways.  Innocent bystanders watching their wealth get impacted they are not.  That's why it's so targeted.

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

or we pull our mate out of it.

In this instance, our mate doesn't want to be pulled out of it

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Avoiding WW3 whilst providing Ukraine with as much aid as is possible.

Rock and hard place, in many respects.

Yep I agree, I just hope somebody somewhere has an idea of what to do next

[The Fun Factory]

13 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Great we have basically given Ukrainians more knives in a gun fight.

I don’t know what the answer is but all we seem to be doing is delaying the inevitable rather than stopping/intervening or pushing back.  We know what Putins goal is, what is our goal.

To shout a lot, weaken Russia's economic position, and to avoid a nuclear holocaust

[Jareth]

It struck me that there is an awful lot of visibility on Russia's secret plans - I get the sense there are folks on the Russian side who are helping this conflict fail

[nick76]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

In this instance, our mate doesn't want to be pulled out of it

Yep understandably.  So do we help more than we are because we know the end result of it if it carries on like this and whatever we do, is it possible without WW3 starting…I hope so!

[sparrow1988]

14 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You don't think there are innocent Russian civilians, who have nothing to do with the war, who are and will suffer as well?

Although I've realised the narrative is that, to show our humanity, and how much we care about the people in Ukraine, is also to show how little we care about average people in Russia. Brilliant! They've been blanket dehumanised in the court of public opinion.

It's always " us Vs them " ... whenever I see this whipped up Mobb mentality, it makes me realise as a human race, we haven't evolved much at all.

If there are Russians who wanted to donate to their OWN people who might be suffering via war and sanctions, as much as some hate it, it should be their perogative.

In the grand scheme of things, Oligarch money is a drop in the bucket, of what is costs to be at war.

You start just deciding who's assets can get stripped, you are on a slippery slope.

This leaves the door open for governments then being able to indiscriminately do this to anyone.

I don't think defending Oligarchs (not solely Abramovich) is the hill you want to die on here. They have supported Putin, put him into power, enabled him, allowed him to go unchallenged all these years, maybe even backed him in this war. They are culpable for what is happening. Not as much as Putin, but they have to take repsonsibility. Their money and power has enabled Putin and by association in many ways enabled this war.

By all means fight the corner of the average Russian shopkeeper, baker, barman. I'll stand right beside you and back you up. They don't deserve this and most don't want it, as is seen by the protests in Russia. But they are been f***ed over more by their President and the Oligarchs (including Abramovich) more than they are by anyone in Europe.

Edited March 4, 2022 by sparrow1988

[sidcow]

Putin has very nicely asked the west to stop putting any more sanctions on them saying he has no ill intentions towards their neighbours and no threats to destroy the world if they continue.

I think he's beginning to feel the heat of the economy completely tanking.

[Mr_Dogg]

19 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

You don't think there are innocent Russian civilians, who have nothing to do with the war, who are and will suffer as well?

Although I've realised the narrative is that, to show our humanity, and how much we care about the people in Ukraine, is also to show how little we care about average people in Russia. Brilliant! They've been blanket dehumanised in the court of public opinion.

It's always " us Vs them " ... whenever I see this whipped up Mobb mentality, it makes me realise as a human race, we haven't evolved much at all.

If there are Russians who wanted to donate to their OWN people who might be suffering via war and sanctions, as much as some hate it, it should be their perogative.

In the grand scheme of things, Oligarch money is a drop in the bucket, of what is costs to be at war.

You start just deciding who's assets can get stripped, you are on a slippery slope.

This leaves the door open for governments then being able to indiscriminately do this to anyone.

There are innocent Russian civilians who will suffer economic hardship. 

I don't think any of them will have missiles dropped on them.

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Putin has very nicely asked the west to stop putting any more sanctions on them saying he has no ill intentions towards their neighbours and no threats to destroy the world if they continue.

I think he's beginning to feel the heat of the economy completely tanking.

It’s a start, at least we know they are biting him.

Or they are biting those around him and they are pressuring him.

Its great news.

[Awol]

18 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Completely agree but what is our goal now? We know Putins goal, what is ours? If ours isn’t to stop him then what are we doing?  People are dying, the longer this goes on the more people will die. It’s like a mate getting beat up in a fight by a much stronger bloke, we either step in and stop it or we pull our mate out of it.  We currently just seem to be coaching at the sides, giving a few tips, our mate is getting a few digs in because of it but is going to end up more badly beaten up because of it.

I don’t want WW3 either.  I also don’t think what we are doing looks like it’s doing much apart from delaying it and explosions by nuclear plants aren’t the most comforting scenes.

Our goal (policy) is for Ukraine to be an independent sovereign state free from outside interference and military invasion. 

Our strategy is to increase the costs of Russian aggression so much that Putin’s regime breaks and he is ousted, or the Russian economy  collapses rendering the state incapable of prosecuting the war against Ukraine. 

His target is Ukrainian society, our target is Russian society. He is using high explosives, we are using financial sanctions. 

The military equipment we are putting into Ukraine allows them to fight more effectively, prolonging their resistance and giving time for our main effort  (the economic war) to be effective.

As has now been done to death, these are our only options to help Ukraine and, if that takes longer than hoped, to keep the Russian military tied down and bleeding there so it cannot be used to attack a NATO ally. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Awol

[a m ole]

11 minutes ago, Jareth said:

It struck me that there is an awful lot of visibility on Russia's secret plans - I get the sense there are folks on the Russian side who are helping this conflict fail

Information age!

[Hobsons Choice]

5 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Putin has very nicely asked the west to stop putting any more sanctions on them saying he has no ill intentions towards their neighbours and no threats to destroy the world if they continue.

I think he's beginning to feel the heat of the economy completely tanking.

Not seen this. Any chance of a link cos it’s been a f**king awful week and I need cheering up.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

7 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I think he's beginning to feel the heat of the economy completely tanking.

Agreed,  to the point that all the previous gains in the last 20 years will be wiped away.  They will go into the late 80's economic outlook that is purely internally created.

[Hobsons Choice]

Just now, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Agreed,  to the point that all the previous gains in the last 20 years will be wiped away.  They will go into the late 80's economic outlook that is purely internally created.

My concern with all of this is that we (as the west) are painted as aggressors in the eyes of Russians who cannot see what is actually going on because of media control. Are we not just enabling Putin to position himself as 'protector of Russia against the whole world who is against us', a bit like they do in North Korea?

I don't have an answer to the problem. It's just an observation. Honestly I don't see an 'off-ramp' to this conflict, as the Americans would say.  

[sidcow]

5 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Not seen this. Any chance of a link cos it’s been a f**king awful week and I need cheering up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-60532634

Quote

President Putin has warned those opposing Russia's actions in Ukraine "not to exacerbate the situation" by imposing more restrictions on his country.

The Russian president was speaking at a government meeting broadcast on the state-controlled Rossiya 24 news channel.

"We have no ill intentions against our neighbours," Putin claims.

And he says his government sees "no need" for its neighbours to take further action that will "make our relations worse".

Quote

"I think everyone must think about how to normalise relations, co-operate normally and develop relations normally," he adds.

It comes as foreign ministers from across the West gather in Brussels to consider how to maintain pressure on Russia.

He's getting worried I think

[Zatman]

The sanctions from Russia just got even worse for them. Carlsberg aren't listening and are keeping the factories open in Russia

[bickster]

11 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said:

There are innocent Russian civilians who will suffer economic hardship. 

I don't think any of them will have missiles dropped on them.

Caveat. That aren't a Russian false flag operation