maqroll Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: I dated a Bosnian for a while. I'll never forget conversations with her and her mother (refugee status in London) which basically went along the lines of: if Muslims were raping, torturing and killing Christians in Europe there would be no hesitation to stop it. But, it was Christian (Serbs) committing atrocities against the Bosnian Muslims. So the West dragged its feet before getting involved and it allowed many atrocities to happen. It was only through a quirk of history and the Ottoman Empire that we had a large population of white Muslims in Europe. I could be wrong, but weren't Muslims in Iberia before the Turks made it into the Balkans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 9 minutes ago, TheAuthority said: Playing devil's advocate, African Americans might argue that white European aggression created slavery which is arguably one of the worst things in human history. African Americans might argue that, but it’s obviously wrong. White Europeans purchased slaves from African rulers who had enslaved other Africans. Those slaves were usually taken captive during wars between rival kingdoms. It’s almost like the human institutions of war and slavery were doing a roaring trade around the world for millennia, before Europeans really found their sea legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 Yes, most people in the Americas tend to view slavery in terms of the transatlantic slave trade only, despite it's archaic roots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 Also I don't think any European influence built the pyramids, the great wall of China or the Aztec temples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted March 2, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 2, 2022 19 minutes ago, Awol said: African Americans might argue that, but it’s obviously wrong. White Europeans purchased slaves from African rulers who had enslaved other Africans. Those slaves were usually taken captive during wars between rival kingdoms. It’s almost like the human institutions of war and slavery were doing a roaring trade around the world for millennia, before Europeans really found their sea legs. Partly, but it isn't like the Euros showed up and said, "well if you are all ok with it then I guess it's all fine." King Leopold in particular demanded a brutal expansion into the Congo to enslave Africans. I am well aware of slavery's long history, but the debate was centering around "White Europeans" and I imagined that history probably starts sometime after the dark ages. Hence my point that African Americans might argue that the enslavement of their peoples was the worst thing in the history of humanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted March 2, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 2, 2022 12 minutes ago, colhint said: Also I don't think any European influence built the pyramids, the great wall of China or the Aztec temples Ancient Civilizations weren't really in the discussion but yes, slavery was used for those construction projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, maqroll said: I could be wrong, but weren't Muslims in Iberia before the Turks made it into the Balkans? You’re not wrong, Muslims conquered their way across Christian North Africa, then Iberia, and very nearly took France, more than 500 years before the Turks captured Constantinople. It was 1683 and the second battle of Vienna before the Caliphate was finally pushed back from efforts to capture Central Europe. Already on to the 2nd of 3rd generations of American colonists by then! Point being that the Islamic world was not shy when it came to the conquest and colonisation of Europe. It’s been a back and forth process for many centuries and the Islamic armies banked big gains that are held to this day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted March 2, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Awol said: You’re not wrong, Muslims conquered their way across Christian North Africa, then Iberia, and very nearly took France, more than 500 years before the Turks captured Constantinople. It was 1683 and the second battle of Vienna before the Caliphate was finally pushed back from efforts to capture Central Europe. Already on to the 2nd of 3rd generations of American colonists by then! Point being that the Islamic world was not shy when it came to the conquest and colonisation of Europe. It’s been a back and forth process for many centuries and the Islamic armies banked big gains that are held to this day. My understanding was that the Muslims in Bosnia were left over from the Ottomans. There you go - learn something new everyday. Edit - Or maybe not - wikipedia seems to agree with me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina Quote A significant number of people in the former Kingdom of Bosnia converted to Islam after the conquest by the Ottoman Empire in the second half of the 15th century, giving it a unique character within the Balkan region. It took over one hundred years for Islam to become the majority religion.[1] Muslims paid much lower taxes and enjoyed widespread benefits while Christians were second-class citizens.[2] Edited March 2, 2022 by TheAuthority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share Posted March 2, 2022 There are a lot of people around the world tonight missing their regular bank deposits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 3 hours ago, TheAuthority said: Thoughts on this take? There’s an odd claim from the same person that the Mercator projection is the ‘same energy’ in the comments, it’s hard to separate a good take from an awful one like that, especially when the person speaks so authoritatively. She seems really **** annoying. Basically agree with HanoiLad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitvilla Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 4 hours ago, TheAuthority said: Thoughts on this take? Philosophically much we hold as true can be considered a "fiction" The rest is teleological post modernism ... in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regular_john Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 How do we see this conflict ending then? Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but I can only see this ending in WW3. I can't see Putin giving up regardless of sanctions and economic pressure. There's no way Ukraine can beat Russia in a conflict, even with Western arms support. I also can't see Putin being satisfied with conquering Ukraine. If he takes Ukraine, which he will, I suspect he'll quickly get to work on some of the other former Soviet states. The only way out I can think of is if the Russian people/elites get so pressured by sanctions that they stage a coup. Anyone else have an answer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 Russia has started to turn Kharkiv into another Grozny from the look of the pictures from this morning 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 1 hour ago, regular_john said: How do we see this conflict ending then? Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but I can only see this ending in WW3. I can't see Putin giving up regardless of sanctions and economic pressure. There's no way Ukraine can beat Russia in a conflict, even with Western arms support. I also can't see Putin being satisfied with conquering Ukraine. If he takes Ukraine, which he will, I suspect he'll quickly get to work on some of the other former Soviet states. The only way out I can think of is if the Russian people/elites get so pressured by sanctions that they stage a coup. Anyone else have an answer? Likely it won't be the West ending this, it'll be China putting so much pressure on Putin that he'll have to stop. Every day Putin loses 1-2000 soldiers, equipment, tanks, planes, and that is before most of the defense equipment Western nations are sending has even arrived. The way Russia's economy is tanking he won't have the cash to replace it, and at some point i.e. Kadyrov will have a full on insurgency on his hands. I heard a BBC clip last night about the amount of people enlisting to the international brigades across Europe yesterday, apparently they counted 200 young men in an hour outside Ukraine's embassy in London, and the line in Berlin was even longer. People will fight Putin dry, and then it's about wether or not he'll hit 'the button', or be pressured into withdrawing or be pushed out of office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 2, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 2, 2022 6 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: I've heard the same claim made about Clent as well. It's surely nonsense, though I don't know how to check for sure. Same claim for Barr Beacon too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 It's extraordinary that Putin has managed to gather EU, gather NATO, put Erdogan, Orban, Duda, American Republicans and Scott Morrisson in the same sphere, increase German defense expenditure, arm Ukraine, get his TV-channels and internet pages hacked, spark Russian riots and make Sweden and Finland likely to join NATO in one week.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted March 2, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 2, 2022 4 minutes ago, magnkarl said: It's extraordinary that Putin has managed to gather EU, gather NATO, put Erdogan, Orban, Duda, American Republicans and Scott Morrisson in the same sphere, increase German defense expenditure, arm Ukraine, get his TV-channels and internet pages hacked, spark Russian riots and make Sweden and Finland likely to join NATO in one week.. Seems a lot of people have been mulling it over since the Crimea annexation and this is the last straw. In other news Roman Abrahamovic still not been hit by sanctions and Lebedev is still Lord Lebedev and there's no sign of the Russia report being published in full. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, magnkarl said: It's extraordinary that Putin has managed to gather EU, gather NATO, put Erdogan, Orban, Duda, American Republicans and Scott Morrisson in the same sphere, increase German defense expenditure, arm Ukraine, get his TV-channels and internet pages hacked, spark Russian riots and make Sweden and Finland likely to join NATO in one week.. No one want's to be on the losing side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 11 minutes ago, magnkarl said: It's extraordinary that Putin has managed to gather EU, gather NATO, put Erdogan, Orban, Duda, American Republicans and Scott Morrisson in the same sphere, increase German defense expenditure, arm Ukraine, get his TV-channels and internet pages hacked, spark Russian riots and make Sweden and Finland likely to join NATO in one week.. Even the Taliban urged a non violent outcome. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 47 minutes ago, regular_john said: How do we see this conflict ending then? Perhaps I'm being pessimistic but I can only see this ending in WW3. I can't see Putin giving up regardless of sanctions and economic pressure. There's no way Ukraine can beat Russia in a conflict, even with Western arms support. I also can't see Putin being satisfied with conquering Ukraine. If he takes Ukraine, which he will, I suspect he'll quickly get to work on some of the other former Soviet states. The only way out I can think of is if the Russian people/elites get so pressured by sanctions that they stage a coup. Anyone else have an answer? Putin will want to encircle Kyiv, have captured southern Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine. When a ceasefire is agreed he will keep hold of that territory to be given to Pro Russian sepratists which ill include Transnistria. So Ukraine will be split in two Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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