Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 16 hours ago, PaulC said: I don't like Southgate but he did play a very attacking team last night and look what happened. I think its shown that some of the backup players are just not up to yet. Playing attacking players doesn't mean you're playing an attacking team. Anyone can name a load of attackers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 The biggest issue is that without any context, a World Cup semi final and a Euros final looks like a **** brilliant performance from Southgate. And as i've said before i don't think he's done a bad job. In fact I think he's done a good job. But he hasn't got the best out of the team, and he won't in the world cup. I'm desperate to see England win something, and this is the best chance we've got with this squad. it's the best squad we've ever had. And we're going to waste it by having an "ok" manager in charge 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Southgates whole approach is frustrate the opposition and then rely on the talent we have to nick a goal or two. Tbf it nearly won us a euros! But as soon as we come against a good team or a very organised team we will struggle. He has to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: The biggest issue is that without any context, a World Cup semi final and a Euros final looks like a **** brilliant performance from Southgate. And as i've said before i don't think he's done a bad job. In fact I think he's done a good job. But he hasn't got the best out of the team, and he won't in the world cup. I'm desperate to see England win something, and this is the best chance we've got with this squad. it's the best squad we've ever had. And we're going to waste it by having an "ok" manager in charge This is true. But it’s incredible that the only top team we have beaten in that whole run is a Germany team in transition. I’ve never seen a ‘favourite’ have so many easy fixtures on route to a semi final / final. (Maybe Brazil in 2002). Contrast that with who France and Italy had to play to win those tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 Just now, Vive_La_Villa said: This is true. But it’s incredible that the only top team we have beaten in that whole run is a Germany team in transition. I’ve never seen a ‘favourite’ have so many easy fixtures on route to a semi final / final. (Maybe Brazil in 2002). Contrast that with who France and Italy had to play to win those tournaments. Quite. That was my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: The biggest issue is that without any context, a World Cup semi final and a Euros final looks like a **** brilliant performance from Southgate. And as i've said before i don't think he's done a bad job. In fact I think he's done a good job. But he hasn't got the best out of the team, and he won't in the world cup. I'm desperate to see England win something, and this is the best chance we've got with this squad. it's the best squad we've ever had. And we're going to waste it by having an "ok" manager in charge Its not the best we ever had When we had the gerrards, the lampards that was a better squad for me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Its not the best we ever had When we had the gerrards, the lampards that was a better squad for me It was possibly a better first XI. It wasn't a better squad. And squads win tournaments. To be fair to Southgate that's one of the things he's been good at is using his squad well in a tournament Edited June 16, 2022 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 23 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Quite. That was my point I was agreeing ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: It was possibly a better first XI. It wasn't a better squad. And squads win tournaments. To be fair to Southgate that's one of the things he's been good at is using his squad well in a tournament Maybe, but the disparity between the defences of the two squads is huge. Edited June 16, 2022 by Wainy316 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 16, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted June 16, 2022 Just now, Wainy316 said: Maybe, but the disparity between the defences of the two squads is huge. Yeah agreed. Defensively the Golden generation was way better, and maybe that puts them over the top as being better. Whereas this generation is stronger in attack. We could argue about it all day. Ultimately though there's not a huge amount of difference between the generations, and I'd argue that relative to other teams in the world, this generation has a far better chance of winning things than the golden generation. What other squads in world football are better than England on paper. France definitely. beyond that I'm not sure there's many that can compete. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: Yeah agreed. Defensively the Golden generation was way better, and maybe that puts them over the top as being better. Whereas this generation is stronger in attack. We could argue about it all day. Ultimately though there's not a huge amount of difference between the generations, and I'd argue that relative to other teams in the world, this generation has a far better chance of winning things than the golden generation. What other squads in world football are better than England on paper. France definitely. beyond that I'm not sure there's many that can compete. Yep, the main constant between the two squads is they were both wasted on crap, stubborn managers. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: Its not the best we ever had When we had the gerrards, the lampards that was a better squad for me I think the difference is that although that squad was excellent, picking the best 11 was a big headache for Sven - and one any manager would have had. We often say just go 4–1-4-1 / 4-3-3 and stick a DM behind Gerrard and Lampard, but our only natural DM was Hargreaves (who split opinion at the time), Scholes was used to playing alongside a stopper in midfield, and then did we have the wingers to play a front 3? Also we never had a decent keeper. Whereas Southgate’s selection headaches are largely of his own making. We have talent in every single position, and can easily pick a shape (4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1) that suits all the available players. That’s why I think this squad is better. It’s just stacked with talent in every position bar centre back… and there’s a similar quality replacement on the bench for every position bar striker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 3 minutes ago, KentVillan said: I think the difference is that although that squad was excellent, picking the best 11 was a big headache for Sven - and one any manager would have had. We often say just go 4–1-4-1 / 4-3-3 and stick a DM behind Gerrard and Lampard, but our only natural DM was Hargreaves (who split opinion at the time), Scholes was used to playing alongside a stopper in midfield, and then did we have the wingers to play a front 3? Also we never had a decent keeper. Whereas Southgate’s selection headaches are largely of his own making. We have talent in every single position, and can easily pick a shape (4-3-3, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1) that suits all the available players. That’s why I think this squad is better. It’s just stacked with talent in every position bar centre back… and there’s a similar quality replacement on the bench for every position bar striker. Ysah i would agree with most of that. Individually though i think under the days where we had gearrda nd co they are superior to the players we currently have now. Also keeper/defence was better 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 4 hours ago, tinker said: You have to look at who's picked Southgate to get to the root of the problem. It's there job to get it right and they have got it wrong , it was our turn to win the last world and euro competitions but Southgate blew it by being out thought during both games. You could see it again against Hungary, he had no answers to their dominance. The only player that looked competitive , for us , was Bellingham and he took him off! 'm sure he's a lovely bloke, who installs a certain amount of loyalty towards him and displays that loyalty back, is he a winner? No, far from it. He will go after the world cup but I don't trust the people who pick our managers to pick another one. Our 2018 squad was shocking, it wasn't our turn to win that one. The national team was at one of its lowest ebbs back then, hence why they couldn't attract anyone decent to take over from Allardyce so they just kept Southgate on after his caretaker stint. Results-wise it's turned out quite well but I just know what XI he will want to put out in Qatar and it will be depressing to watch. We're at that stage where proactive PL CEOs would say thanks for getting us here but now we need someone to take us to a new level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Demitri_C said: Ysah i would agree with most of that. Individually though i think under the days where we had gearrda nd co they are superior to the players we currently have now. Also keeper/defence was better Defence was definitely much better. We had several centre backs who were among the best in the world, and Ashley Cole was arguably the best LB in the world. But not sure about keeper. These are the keepers Sven capped: David James 32 caps Paul Robinson 26 caps David Seaman 13 caps Nigel Martyn 9 caps Rob Green 1 cap Richard Wright 1 cap Ian Walker 1 cap Seaman was class in his prime, but Sven had him at the tail end of his career when he'd lost his confidence. And the rest of those keepers were mediocre. Pickford in the Euros was above all of those IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 41 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Defence was definitely much better. We had several centre backs who were among the best in the world, and Ashley Cole was arguably the best LB in the world. But not sure about keeper. These are the keepers Sven capped: David James 32 caps Paul Robinson 26 caps David Seaman 13 caps Nigel Martyn 9 caps Rob Green 1 cap Richard Wright 1 cap Ian Walker 1 cap Seaman was class in his prime, but Sven had him at the tail end of his career when he'd lost his confidence. And the rest of those keepers were mediocre. Pickford in the Euros was above all of those IMO. All of that just shows that we haven't had a top keeper since Seaman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: All of that just shows that we haven't had a top keeper since Seaman. Hart was very good for a while and then nosedived. Robinson a similar story. I suppose we like to think of England as a country that produces great keepers, but once you get past Banks, Shilton, Clemence, Seaman it's not exactly a stellar lineup. Italy and Germany seem to have the best record of always having a top Champions League quality keeper in the squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Just now, KentVillan said: Hart was very good for a while and then nosedived. Robinson a similar story. I suppose we like to think of England as a country that produces great keepers, but once you get past Banks, Shilton, Clemence, Seaman it's not exactly a stellar lineup. Italy and Germany seem to have the best record of always having a top Champions League quality keeper in the squad. England produce keepers but when they make a big mistake they crack. Not sure if its media pressure or a mentality issue. Carson could have been Number One for a decade but dropped his form after the Croatia game, same with Rob Green Pickford for all his mistakes is really good at bouncing back from them which I am not sure is a compliment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 7 minutes ago, Zatman said: England produce keepers but when they make a big mistake they crack. Not sure if its media pressure or a mentality issue. Carson could have been Number One for a decade but dropped his form after the Croatia game, same with Rob Green Pickford for all his mistakes is really good at bouncing back from them which I am not sure is a compliment Think we have such a blame culture when it comes to the national team, and keepers are always the easiest targets unless they have a 100% perfect game every week. Pickford has probably been Southgate's biggest success story tbh. He's backed him, never blamed him for mistakes, let him play with freedom. Big contrast from the pressure that was heaped on James, Carson, Green, and co. But equally, if we were producing genuinely top drawer keepers, the money would have attracted them to the top Champions League sides before the media had a chance to destroy their careers. I don't think there's been an English keeper in a European Cup / Champions League final since 1982! Martyn and Hart each managed a semi [Kenneth.gif] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 How many mistakes has pickford actually made for England? Can't be many Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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