KevinRichardsonsMoustache Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 His excuses would sound valid if he was a pundit. When he’s the guy making the decisions, his comments are baffling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Bear Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 53 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Hoddle was extremely unlucky in WC98 and then got binned for off-the-field issues. He wasn't unlucky at all. He had already lost to Romania. Kept playing Sheringham with Shearer despite it obvious to everyone that Owen needed to play. He only qualified for the WC because Italy shit the bed. 1 point from two games against them. His results after France 98 were abysmal and he should have been sacked for them alone. Hoddle's England didn't beat a single team of note in a competitive match ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 All this talk about how this great team spirit has been nurtured, yet I didn't see many England players looking like they were enjoying the occasion. Quite the opposite in fact. A complete lack of self - belief at the time it's needed most. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Yes but using knockout games as a measure also captures whether we even reached the knockouts. We won less knockout games because we couldn't even get out of the groups half the time is again more credit to Southgate for winning groups. It's not a perfect comparison, I understand that. But it shows how poor England have been at the Euros for basically the entire history of the competition bar 1996, 2020 and 2024 The rest of your post I agree with entirely I'm saying it's generally easier now to get out of the groups. Look at our groups in the last few 16-team tournaments: 2000: Portugal, Romania, Germany 2004: France, Croatia, Switzerland 2012: France, Ukraine, Sweden When they expanded the tournament to 24 teams (i.e. 6 groups), they naturally lowered the average quality of each group: 2016: Wales, Slovakia, Russia 2020: Croatia, Czech Rep, Scotland 2024: Denmark, Slovenia, Serbia Under the old format, you usually had 3 major sides contesting for 2 qualifying places in the knockouts. In the new format, you have 1 or 2 major sides per group, and even if you finish 3rd you can still scrape through. Southgate's achievements need to be understood in that light. People keep trotting out these stats as if they're comparable across generations. The only manager we can really compare him with is Roy Hodgson. Well fine, happy to accept he's been a better England manager than Hodgson. Edited July 15 by KentVillan 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 15 VT Supporter Share Posted July 15 6 minutes ago, KentVillan said: I'm saying it's generally easier now to get out of the groups. Look at our groups in the last few 16-team tournaments: 2000: Portugal, Romania, Germany 2004: France, Croatia, Switzerland 2012: France, Ukraine, Sweden When they expanded the tournament to 24 teams (i.e. 6 groups), they naturally lowered the average quality of each group: 2016: Wales, Slovakia, Russia 2020: Croatia, Czech Rep, Scotland 2024: Denmark, Slovenia, Serbia Under the old format, you usually had 3 major sides contesting for 2 qualifying places in the knockouts. In the new format, you have 1 or 2 major sides per group, and even if you finish 3rd you can still scrape through. Southgate's achievements need to be understood in that light. People keep trotting out these stats as if they're comparable across generations. The only manager we can really compare him with is Roy Hodgson. Well fine, happy to accept he's been a better England manager than Hodgson. 49 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: It's not a perfect comparison, I understand that. But it shows how poor England have been at the Euros for basically the entire history of the competition bar 1996, 2020 and 2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 6 hours ago, Mic09 said: I've had enough of this rhetoric - what culture change? Everyone smiles? Kane think they had a tough run? Walker saying they did well is crappy games? If the culture change means a 'happy get together' then thank you very much. I want warriors and people who take responsibility - Palmer did that. Watkins did that. I want Kane to walk up to Walker and discuss that performance with him. I want Bellingham to drive the entire midfield forward by 10/15 yards. Stones to take the football and drive it forward. And do it again. That is the culture change we need. Players expecting better from each other and holding themselves responsible. It reminds me of the Steve Bruce "steadied the ship" canard. Did he really though? Or did we just have such a huge turnover of personnel that things naturally shifted? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: It's not a perfect comparison, I understand that. But it shows how poor England have been at the Euros for basically the entire history of the competition bar 1996, 2020 and 2024 I get that, but I feel Southgate would have struggled to get out of those groups in 2000, 2004 and 2012. And I think quite a few of our past managers would have got us out of the groups Southgate had in "2020" (2021) and 2024. It's impossible to know, of course, and I'm not saying Southgate is *as bad* as his biggest critics claim. But he's also not as good or even as successful as he is often painted to be. He's had uniquely easy draws really, with the possible exception of Hodgson managing to screw up Euro 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 7 minutes ago, Keyblade said: It reminds me of the Steve Bruce "steadied the ship" canard. Did he really though? Or did we just have such a huge turnover of personnel that things naturally shifted? Translated , we were shit for years then less shit. Hurray... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I think the thing that annoys us is that England can play like last 20 mins against the Dutch, and do so consistently. It's just stubbornness of the manager that prevents England from doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 29 minutes ago, R.Bear said: He wasn't unlucky at all. He had already lost to Romania. Kept playing Sheringham with Shearer despite it obvious to everyone that Owen needed to play. He only qualified for the WC because Italy shit the bed. 1 point from two games against them. His results after France 98 were abysmal and he should have been sacked for them alone. Hoddle's England didn't beat a single team of note in a competitive match ever. Hoddle had a better win % than Southgate, and like his predecessors in the 80s and 90s was still dealing with a generation of English players who mostly had no tactical awareness and didn't look after themselves properly. Got robbed by a ridiculous red card decision against Argentina. His results after France 98 were W2 D1 L1. Not trying to make a case for Hoddle here, but give Southgate that squad, that qualifying group, that WC group, and that knockout draw, and you're probably getting a very similar outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 10 minutes ago, rodders0223 said: Translated , we were shit for years then less shit. Hurray... Wouldn't say England are shit, regularly favourites for tournaments now, usually get to at least the semi-finals etc. But as for the culture, how much of it was down to Southgate and how much of it was down to the likes of Terry and Gerrard retiring, and the PL rivalries which used to cause rifts ceasing to exist? If you watch Liverpool vs United or the Manchester Derby now, as soon as the whistle blows for full time, everyone is chummy and laughing it up. The overall culture of English football changed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, KentVillan said: It's worth pointing out that the Euros was a 16-team competition until Euro 2016. That meant that (a) qualifying was harder, (b) the tournament groups were tougher, and (c) the first knockout match was a Quarter Final. I think we can all agree Southgate was a better England coach than McLaren, Hodgson, Keegan, and the like. Probably better than Sven, too, who also wasted a talented generation with tactical rigidity. The question is more, is he really better than Ramsey, Venables, Hoddle, Capello, etc. or are there actually pretty good explanations for why he outperformed them on paper, which don't really relate to his coaching ability? Ramsey coached in an era where teams like Macedonia simply didn't exist. Venables coached in an era where the Premier League was lightyears behind Serie A, La Liga, etc. Hoddle was extremely unlucky in WC98 and then got binned for off-the-field issues. Capello actually had better win rate, but was culturally the wrong fit. Southgate had some incredibly easy qualifying groups and tournament draws throughout his tenure. He never had to get us through a "group of death" in either qualifying or tournament football. Despite all the plaudits, what are his "iconic" results or performances? I can't think of any really. His best pick at this tournament (Guehi) was forced on him by an injury to Maguire. There have been competent replacements for Maguire (Mings, Konsa, Guehi, Branthwaite, etc) kicking around for a while now, and Southgate persisted with him long after everyone else in football had given up. He's never, at any point in his tenure, had our attack playing with any kind of fluidity. They don't seem to have any patterns of play. It doesn't matter how he sets it up, there's never an attacking plan, beyond letting all the stars play their natural game in ways that don't gel properly. It's basically Gerrard's "moments of magic" philosophy with a nicer personality and a happier dressing room. Not forgetting Ramsey won the league title with Ipswich so he had credibility as a manager. Capello was terrible as England manager and can't be compared. Southgate deserves credit for taking us so far but now it's time to go and give somebody else a chance 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 11 minutes ago, PaulC said: Not forgetting Ramsey won the league title with Ipswich so he had credibility as a manager. Capello was terrible as England manager and can't be compared. Southgate deserves credit for taking us so far but now it's time to go and give somebody else a chance The narrative is that Capello was a terrible England manager, because the players hated him and he couldn't do interviews, and yet his win rate of 67% is superior to everyone except Allardyce (P1 W1). He got to the knockout stages and got knocked out by the first top side he faced. That's very much in keeping with Southgate's record! Edit: just to be clear, I think Capello was a misguided appointment, and I'm being facetious. But on stats alone, it's hard to argue he was much worse than Southgate. I don't see Southgate getting past that Germany side. Edited July 15 by KentVillan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) Shock, its coming out now Sputhgate knew about Kanes back injury, but continued to play him. One good quote I heard today is "we need a proper technical coach next time, not a therapist." Edited July 15 by foreveryoung Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinRichardsonsMoustache Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I wonder if his mum had any feedback from yesterday? “Why didn’t you play Watkins from the start?” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Shock, its coming out now Sputhgate knew about Kanes back injury, but continued to play him. One good quote I heard today is "we need a proper technical coach next time, not a therapist." Who'd have thought starting someone who couldn't jump sprint or turn would be a bad idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R.Bear Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 44 minutes ago, KentVillan said: Hoddle had a better win % than Southgate, and like his predecessors in the 80s and 90s was still dealing with a generation of English players who mostly had no tactical awareness and didn't look after themselves properly. Got robbed by a ridiculous red card decision against Argentina. His results after France 98 were W2 D1 L1. Not trying to make a case for Hoddle here, but give Southgate that squad, that qualifying group, that WC group, and that knockout draw, and you're probably getting a very similar outcome. You would make a great politician. That's some amazing fiddling of the figures and mental gymnastics right there. Win% means jack shit. Beckham was as easy a red card as there is. Play was dead and he kicked out. It doesnt matter if you punch/kick someone softly or hard, violent conduct is violent conduct. His results were W2 D1 L1 yes but he lost to a mediocre Sweden after taking the lead, drew at home with an abject Bulgaria and beat only minnows Luxembourg in competitive games. The other win was meaningless friendly. Hoddle's best competitive win during his tenure was beating a terrible Colombia who had won 1 of their last 10 games. Every other game he either lost or drew. Hoddle was shite. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleVilla Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said: All this talk about how this great team spirit has been nurtured, yet I didn't see many England players looking like they were enjoying the occasion. Quite the opposite in fact. A complete lack of self - belief at the time it's needed most. I kept saying this yesterday when Saka had to the ball. He was very reserved and often went back, instead of driving at Cucurella and drawing a foul or even better getting a ball in the box. Nothing against Saka. Just alot of the players yesterday. Like the belief that was there in the Holland game just wasn't there yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 3 minutes ago, MapleVilla said: I kept saying this yesterday when Saka had to the ball. He was very reserved and often went back, instead of driving at Cucurella and drawing a foul or even better getting a ball in the box. Nothing against Saka. Just alot of the players yesterday. Like the belief that was there in the Holland game just wasn't there yesterday. That's my point, when it's needed most, they have been found wanting. Pickford, frightened to death to give the ball to his centre - half's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaJ100 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 In an alternate universe Big Sam is up for knighthood after defending the Euro title and losing in the WC final to a dodgy pen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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