Davkaus Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 13 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said: The culture change in the squad, while I think there has been a shift and Southgate probably (likely) played his part, I’m not sure how much is due to him. When I think of or hear the rhetoric of individual club camps within the squad, my immediate thinking is Ferdinand/Rooney/Neville/Beckham in the Man Utd corner, Lampard, Terry and Cole in the Chelsea corner, Gerrard/Carragher in the Liverpool corner…I can envisage there being an issue there that needed rectifying. I look at the squad in 2016 (pre Southgate) and I’m not seeing the same potential toxicity in the names there. As V4E says, the world has kinda changed in that regard too. I just wonder if this animosity was on it’s way out anyway and Southgate has nurtured the more positive atmosphere, rather than creating it as such. I agree 100% with this. The toxicity was leaving the game with the end of the Fergie/Wenger/Mourinho era, IMO, and Southgate may have played his art in making it fun and nice to be away with England, but again he gets a lot of credit for being in the right place at the right time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 30 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: Do you not understand it? Really? I think you do. Because Saka and Rice and nicer lads than Rio and Terry. Does that help? A great camaraderie, whilst helpful, is no guarantee of success in the real sense of the word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MachoFantastico Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I hope to god they don't offer him a new contract, but I suspect the FA will. They seem to adore Gareth and I'm not entirely sure why. We've been so lucky to get as far as we did with some atrocious performances in two different Euros now. England desperately needs a fresh face, I'd even go for someone like klopp if he were interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 English football fundamentally has to change. I can't fathom all the work we've done on all the age groups and the development and the pathways then having two pricks in charge who are two cowardice to trust the players to pass the ball. All the work we've done and we still can't get away from pumping it. Spain don't generally have great players but they have a way of playing that is engrained. They keep the ball. They trust each other. They move the ball and the team that keeps the ball 99 times out of 100 wins the game. Southgate doesn't have the right to decide his own destiny. He should be booted out. If the FA want a yes man so be it, if he goes to a tournament and plays the way Gareth has then boot him up. English football has to **** change. If that means getting a bloody nose for the next few tournaments trying to play so be it. We have to **** change and the praise for dragging our arses to two finals has to stop. English coaches need to change. I'd stop hiring anyway who played in English football prior to 2010 at this rate and I'm not even sure I'm joking. What's the point in getting great technical players and then getting yer da to put them on the pitch. " safety first " " if in doubt son" "don't take risks there lad" And you know what, it's the same thing we've said for 20 or 30 years, we've just been kidding ourselves we've changed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 13 minutes ago, rodders0223 said: English football fundamentally has to change. I can't fathom all the work we've done on all the age groups and the development and the pathways then having two pricks in charge who are two cowardice to trust the players to pass the ball. Our striker is injured, and tired, and we’ve got 2 backup strikers in incredible form… let’s play the injured one every game when he’s clearly not at it. I’d be raging if I was his boss at the FA. The little bits that happen in game are just fate, but stuff like that boils my piss. What could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmark86 Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 6 minutes ago, Genie said: Our striker is injured, and tired, and we’ve got 2 backup strikers in incredible form… let’s play the injured one every game when he’s clearly not at it. I’d be raging if I was his boss at the FA. The little bits that happen in game are just fate, but stuff like that boils my piss. What could have been. Yeah that is just downright negligent. You don't do that. England has the best squad on paper, the easiest run out of all top teams and they **** it up again because the manager is too weak to not play his injured and ineffective captain who plays more like a midfielder than being in the box anyways. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I wonder what is going through Ollie’s head when he watches Gareth talk about how Kane was injured and tired, but still preferred over him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbertoAVFC Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 I don't think it's even debatable that he is not good enough. I'm sure many countries have great camaraderie in the squad. I think it's a lot more to do with this generation being a lot sounder than previous ones though, and not Southgate himself. Let's be honest, the people who argue in favour of Southgate are generally the people that only watch the latter stages of tournaments. Anybody who follows football closely knows that he is out of his depth tactically at this level and has been during his entire reign. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 43 minutes ago, MachoFantastico said: I hope to god they don't offer him a new contract, but I suspect the FA will. They seem to adore Gareth and I'm not entirely sure why. We've been so lucky to get as far as we did with some atrocious performances in two different Euros now. England desperately needs a fresh face, I'd even go for someone like klopp if he were interested. He is a Yes man and has got England far in tournaments so the suits are getting looked after and thats all they care about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) I think he'll move on regardless of any contract offer. Odd his contract continues until November rather than just runs out this tournament. Did he sign a new one just before the last World cup? Might not be terrible as will likely be better options available in summer 2025 than there is now. England's next game is in Dublin so imagine the Aviva will give him a hero's reception. Edited July 15 by VillaChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 "WE HAD PHYSICAL PROBLEMS TROUGHOUT THE TOURNAMENT". That's why you have a squad. Pick your fit players. Talk about Spain being the best team but unless the Premier League is a lot inferior to la logs I don't get it because players like Foden, Palmer, Saka and Watkins all had more goals and assists than their attacking players including Willisms. Mind you Bellingham who had a great season in la liga so can't be that players are worse than the spainish ones they are just not used to playing low block hoof ball football 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, Davkaus said: I agree 100% with this. The toxicity was leaving the game with the end of the Fergie/Wenger/Mourinho era, IMO, and Southgate may have played his art in making it fun and nice to be away with England, but again he gets a lot of credit for being in the right place at the right time. Yep, we see this week in week out. “Rival” players having a good old chat and hug before and after a game. Even during the Manchester derby there is no bitter rivalry between players any more. I’m not saying it just to bash Southgate but I don’t think he can take too much credit for breaking down those barriers. Edited July 15 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 15 VT Supporter Share Posted July 15 3 hours ago, Genie said: Well we have That’s the point. In this Euro’s we failed to beat the following inside of 90 minutes: Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Switzerland and somehow ended up in the final. I still don’t understand it. We played shite from the first moment. We had absolutely no business in the final. At the last Euro’s we have Ukraine and Denmark in the knockout rounds. The world cup we had Senegal before losing to France. Nobody is saying the draws haven't been kind. They have, and they've helped massively. But England have had good draws before and still failed. This isn't some massive pro Southgate point, it's just fighting against the usual VT approach of "He's shit which means he has never done anything remotely positive ever and everything he has ever done is shit and anything good is pure luck" (or vice versa It's possible to acknowledge that Southgate has done a few good things, whilst still holding the opinion that he's failed overall and is shit tactically 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 9 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Nobody is saying the draws haven't been kind. They have, and they've helped massively. But England have had good draws before and still failed. This isn't some massive pro Southgate point, it's just fighting against the usual VT approach of "He's shit which means he has never done anything remotely positive ever and everything he has ever done is shit and anything good is pure luck" (or vice versa It's possible to acknowledge that Southgate has done a few good things, whilst still holding the opinion that he's failed overall and is shit tactically I am anti Southgate. That comes from the performances and players he picks and doesn't pick. But I am also happy to credit him for bringing back belief, for creating unity, and for a period giving us hope. But his management is limited and it's time for him to go. He could make a good DOF type for the FA, with a tactically astute manager replacing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 12 minutes ago, Dodgyknees said: I am anti Southgate. That comes from the performances and players he picks and doesn't pick. But I am also happy to credit him for bringing back belief, for creating unity, and for a period giving us hope. But his management is limited and it's time for him to go. He could make a good DOF type for the FA, with a tactically astute manager replacing him. We never looked like winning the cup, we never looked like beating Denmark or Slovenia. I’m not saying it just to pile on, but crediting him for bringing back belief I don’t get. We were put up against mediocre opposition and looked poor. It’s the insanely fortunate way the draw opened up (again) which allowed us through. It would be like Villa getting the the cup final under Gerrard somehow only drawing teams from the Championship, failing to beat most of them and scraping through with dodgy pens and occasional moments of sublime quality and then saying he brought a belief back to the club and deserves credit for it. We should have beaten those mid-range sides to generate a belief we might beat Spain. If that had happened then I’d give Gareth some credit for bringing back the belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 4 minutes ago, Genie said: We never looked like winning the cup, we never looked like beating Denmark or Slovenia. I’m not saying it just to pile on, but crediting him for bringing back belief I don’t get. We were put up against mediocre opposition and looked poor. It’s the insanely fortunate way the draw opened up (again) which allowed us through. It would be like Villa getting the the cup final under Gerrard somehow only drawing teams from the Championship, failing to beat most of them and scraping through with dodgy pens and occasional moments of sublime quality and then saying he brought a belief back to the club and deserves credit for it. We should have beaten those mid-range sides to generate a belief we might beat Spain. If that had happened then I’d give Gareth some credit for bringing back the belief. I wanted him to leave as manager 18 months ago. I believe we would have had a much better chance of winning this tournament if he had gone. I don't like him or want him, but in happy to credit him where it's due. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 15 VT Supporter Share Posted July 15 20 minutes ago, Genie said: We never looked like winning the cup, we never looked like beating Denmark or Slovenia. I’m not saying it just to pile on, but crediting him for bringing back belief I don’t get. We were put up against mediocre opposition and looked poor. It’s the insanely fortunate way the draw opened up (again) which allowed us through. It would be like Villa getting the the cup final under Gerrard somehow only drawing teams from the Championship, failing to beat most of them and scraping through with dodgy pens and occasional moments of sublime quality and then saying he brought a belief back to the club and deserves credit for it. We should have beaten those mid-range sides to generate a belief we might beat Spain. If that had happened then I’d give Gareth some credit for bringing back the belief. In this tournament sure. But overall in his tenure I don't think you can just credit it to luck. before Southgate England had won ONE knockout game at the euros. One. Ever. Since 1968 We faced plenty of shit teams in that time. We lost. Does a team go 50 years with absolutely no luck and then Southgate arrives and suddenly we get more luck than ever before four tournaments running? We've now won 7 knockout games at the euros. And 3 more at the world cup. And we have actually been decent in his other tournaments, whilst admittedly still lacking that ability to win a big game when it really matters. We've been shit in this tournament but that doesn't reflect how we've played in other tournaments under Southgate Luck helps, of course. It's a factor. But there is more to it than that. The morale of the squad, relationship to the media, relationships of the players etc is night and day from before Southgate arrived and that all helps. Roy Hodgson's England wouldn't have got the same results with the same luck 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: In this tournament sure. But overall in his tenure I don't think you can just credit it to luck. before Southgate England had won ONE knockout game at the euros. One. Ever. Since 1968 We faced plenty of shit teams in that time. We lost. Does a team go 50 years with absolutely no luck and then Southgate arrives and suddenly we get more luck than ever before four tournaments running? We've now won 7 knockout games at the euros. And 3 more at the world cup. And we have actually been decent in his other tournaments, whilst admittedly still lacking that ability to win a big game when it really matters. We've been shit in this tournament but that doesn't reflect how we've played in other tournaments under Southgate Luck helps, of course. It's a factor. But there is more to it than that. The morale of the squad, relationship to the media, relationships of the players etc is night and day from before Southgate arrived and that all helps. Roy Hodgson's England wouldn't have got the same results with the same luck It's worth pointing out that the Euros was a 16-team competition until Euro 2016. That meant that (a) qualifying was harder, (b) the tournament groups were tougher, and (c) the first knockout match was a Quarter Final. I think we can all agree Southgate was a better England coach than McLaren, Hodgson, Keegan, and the like. Probably better than Sven, too, who also wasted a talented generation with tactical rigidity. The question is more, is he really better than Ramsey, Venables, Hoddle, Capello, etc. or are there actually pretty good explanations for why he outperformed them on paper, which don't really relate to his coaching ability? Ramsey coached in an era where teams like Macedonia simply didn't exist. Venables coached in an era where the Premier League was lightyears behind Serie A, La Liga, etc. Hoddle was extremely unlucky in WC98 and then got binned for off-the-field issues. Capello actually had better win rate, but was culturally the wrong fit. Southgate had some incredibly easy qualifying groups and tournament draws throughout his tenure. He never had to get us through a "group of death" in either qualifying or tournament football. Despite all the plaudits, what are his "iconic" results or performances? I can't think of any really. His best pick at this tournament (Guehi) was forced on him by an injury to Maguire. There have been competent replacements for Maguire (Mings, Konsa, Guehi, Branthwaite, etc) kicking around for a while now, and Southgate persisted with him long after everyone else in football had given up. He's never, at any point in his tenure, had our attack playing with any kind of fluidity. They don't seem to have any patterns of play. It doesn't matter how he sets it up, there's never an attacking plan, beyond letting all the stars play their natural game in ways that don't gel properly. It's basically Gerrard's "moments of magic" philosophy with a nicer personality and a happier dressing room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 The facts are, every time Southgate's England came up against a team who were as good on paper, they lost. The football, as a spectacle, has been turgid and, at times, aimless. The amount of times Pickford kicked the ball long in the naive hope an England head would be on the end of it. You have ball - playing centre - half's, yet decide to bypass them, instead gifting possession to a side who are at their most comfortable in possession. You don't have to be a master of tactics to understand how that was the wrong game - plan. Those tactics are rooted in an over cautious mind. The fear with some of the England players was palpable, Pickford, with his kicking. Rice, time and time again, clearing the ball straight to an opponent. And, the most costly fear driven decision, Walker, with the opportunity to throw the ball into a dangerous area, inexplicably, decides to throw the ball all the way back into England's own half, which resulted in, the loss off that all important momentum which had just resulted in us gaining parity. It was another classic example of England failing yet again in being able to give that final push. The German, Low, at least had the winners medals to show for all those many years. He also gave the team a clear identity. I don't see either of those things with Southgate. How many bloody goes do you want? Give someone else the opportunity. Imagine Pep with that talent at his disposal. Or Klopp. We would at least excite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 15 VT Supporter Share Posted July 15 (edited) 25 minutes ago, KentVillan said: It's worth pointing out that the Euros was a 16-team competition until Euro 2016. That meant that (a) qualifying was harder, (b) the tournament groups were tougher, and (c) the first knockout match was a Quarter Final. Yes but using knockout games as a measure also captures whether we even reached the knockouts. We won less knockout games because we couldn't even get out of the groups half the time is again more credit to Southgate for winning groups. It's not a perfect comparison, I understand that. But it shows how poor England have been at the Euros for basically the entire history of the competition bar 1996, 2020 and 2024 The rest of your post I agree with entirely Edited July 15 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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