Gareth "Interesting" Southgate

[UpTheVilla26]

It's good to hear a few calling him out on the radio today, though Jim White is doing his best to shut down anyone with that opinion. 

[Mic09]

4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

We haven't accidentally got to two major finals

Well, this year they sort of did.

The draw and results were mad. Draws with Slovakia, Slovenia, Denmark, Swiss. Beaten Serbia. 

Beat Dutch thanks to 2 players he decided to bench for most of the tournament. 

I don't think this tournament has tested Southgate at all. 

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

We haven't accidentally got to two major finals

Well we have  That’s the point.

In this Euro’s we failed to beat the following inside of 90 minutes: Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Switzerland and somehow ended up in the final.

I still don’t understand it. We played shite from the first moment. We had absolutely no business in the final.

At the last Euro’s we have Ukraine and Denmark in the knockout rounds. 

The world cup we had Senegal before losing to France.

 

 

Edited July 15 by Genie

[sheepyvillian]

A team without a real identity are invariably going to fall short.

[JoshVilla]

A lot has been made of England's improved progression in tournaments under Southgate's tenure but, like other posters have said, that's mostly down to incredibly favourable draws and inheriting the most talented group of players that we've had for years. His record against the top 10 teams in the world is terrible.

His overly cautious style of play cost us against Italy in the previous Euros final, and it was a similar story this time around. Kane had been ineffective pretty much the entire tournament. We knew that Spain would likely have the majority of possession and we'd need to make the most of the chances that we create on the counter. A player like Watkins, or even Toney, would have been far better placed to start. I get that it's not a good look to drop the captain and top scorer, but it's an even worse look to shoe horn him into the starting 11 to the detriment of the team. 

[sheepyvillian]

Southgate is the perfect example of how stats can.be very misleading. 

[TRO]

I always believe it......Teams mirror the character of the manager.

Southgate is a nearly man.

Like most people do, he does somethings well, but he hasn't got the X factor to win things.

[HanoiVillan]

25 minutes ago, Genie said:

Well we have  That’s the point.

In this Euro’s we failed to beat the following inside of 90 minutes: Denmark, Slovenia, Slovakia and Switzerland and somehow ended up in the final.

I still don’t understand it. We played shite from the first moment. We had absolutely no business in the final.

At the last Euro’s we have Ukraine and Denmark in the knockout rounds. 

The world cup we had Senegal before losing to France.

We were clearly one of the two best sides in the last Euros and deserved to be in the final. This time, we were not one of the two best sides and definitely benefitted from the favourable half of the draw. 

[VillaChris]

10 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

It's impossible to say for certain whether Potter would do better than Southgate, but there's reason for concern. He seems like a system manager who has taken time in previous gigs for teams to learn how he wants to play, time that doesn't exist at international level. He also failed to get consistent results out of the big names and egos in the Chelsea dressing room. 

Of course, he might be fine. But I don't think it's crazy to be worried. 

He really struggled under the spotlight at Chelsea once they didn't win 4-5 games so that would be a legitimate concern certainly.

Outsider for me would be Steve Cooper. He managed all of Guehi, Sancho, Gallagher, Foden when they won Under 17 World Cup (v Spain) in 2017 so knows a decent number of the squad already. Been in FA system and done well at Swansea and Forest so if you want a De La Fuente type appointment he's the best out there rather than Carsley who's never managed anyone apart from under 21s.

[Tomaszk]

57 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't really understand how people can't see how vastly improved that part of the team/squad is compared to how it used to be.

But each to their own

Do you not understand it? Really? I think you do.

Because Saka and Rice and nicer lads than Rio and Terry. Does that help?

Edited July 15 by Tomaszk

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, JoshVilla said:

A lot has been made of England's improved progression in tournaments under Southgate's tenure but, like other posters have said, that's mostly down to incredibly favourable draws and inheriting the most talented group of players that we've had for years. His record against the top 10 teams in the world is terrible.

His overly cautious style of play cost us against Italy in the previous Euros final, and it was a similar story this time around. Kane had been ineffective pretty much the entire tournament. We knew that Spain would likely have the majority of possession and we'd need to make the most of the chances that we create on the counter. A player like Watkins, or even Toney, would have been far better placed to start. I get that it's not a good look to drop the captain and top scorer, but it's an even worse look to shoe horn him into the starting 11 to the detriment of the team. 

Foden was anonymous too, just drifting around aimlessly......to allow that to happen, when Palmer, Boden and Gordon was available was very poor from Southgate. He sticks with poor form, regardless, is his downfall.

I thought his exclusion of Jack too, was an error......Jack could at least hold the ball up.

Foden in contrast was insipid, through much of the tournament....In fact all the Man City contingent was iffy, perhaps Pep get the best out of them.

Edited July 15 by TRO

[VillaChris]

4 hours ago, a-k said:

Had Spain on the back foot and rattled after the Palmer equalizer. Any good manager pushes on and tries to get a second. Southgate played for ET + pens.

I mentioned it last night but watched the second half again on ITV + 1 and Matterface mentioned he had Gallagher and Trippier ready to come on with five minutes left!

Gallagher would've ran around a bit but wouldn't have been able to keep the ball at all with Spain's pressing. If you wanted to stay on front foot then surely TAA for Shaw would've been a decent sub and move Walker to LB.

He was already thinking of penalties before extra time was a thing and then it didn't happen and he then threw on Toney as last resort.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

He really struggled under the spotlight at Chelsea once they didn't win 4-5 games so that would be a legitimate concern certainly.

Outsider for me would be Steve Cooper. He managed all of Guehi, Sancho, Gallagher, Foden when they won Under 17 World Cup (v Spain) in 2017 so knows a decent number of the squad already. Been in FA system and done well at Swansea and Forest so if you want a De La Fuente type appointment he's the best out there rather than Carsley who's never managed anyone apart from under 21s.

Cooper is one I assumed would make the final shortlist, but I took from his decision to take the Leicester job that he felt like he'd not be in the running. Maybe I'm wrong about that but it would be quite a thing for him to move on having not actually managed a game. 

[Mark Albrighton]

The culture change in the squad, while I think there has been a shift and Southgate probably (likely) played his part, I’m not sure how much is due to him.

When I think of or hear the rhetoric of individual club camps within the squad, my immediate thinking is Ferdinand/Rooney/Neville/Beckham in the Man Utd corner,  Lampard, Terry and Cole in the Chelsea corner, Gerrard/Carragher in the Liverpool corner…I can envisage there being an issue there that needed rectifying.

I look at the squad in 2016 (pre Southgate) and I’m not seeing the same potential toxicity in the names there. As V4E says, the world has kinda changed in that regard too.

I just wonder if this animosity was on it’s way out anyway and Southgate has nurtured the more positive atmosphere, rather than creating it as such.

 

But I don’t consume as much England football as you guys so I’m not concrete on this musing. But I do wonder it.

Edited July 15 by Mark Albrighton

[TRO]

It will be another, yes man....A safe appointment.

[VillaChris]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

Cooper is one I assumed would make the final shortlist, but I took from his decision to take the Leicester job that he felt like he'd not be in the running. Maybe I'm wrong about that but it would be quite a thing for him to move on having not actually managed a game. 

Think he just wanted to get back in with a club side and wasn't really thinking of England job. Leicester job won't be easy with points deduction and restrictions on signings so he might be under pressure there early next season.

If FA have shortlist of 3-4 he should be on there and interviewed with his track record.

Think Southgate's contract runs until end of 2024 instead of being up now so he could just manage the nations league games and then quit end of 2024 if FA feel it's easier to approach someone mid season, we'll see.

[Genie]

9 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

We were clearly one of the two best sides in the last Euros and deserved to be in the final

Favourable draw again imo. Italy beat Austria, Spain and Belgium on the way to beating us in the final. 

I don’t think we get to the final on the other side of the draw.

[Jonesy7211]

In many ways, we're very lucky with the players we have. Some of the players are exceptional because they're at top clubs in the most competitive top league in the world. These clubs simply wouldn't play or buy them if they weren't. They're not interested in developing English youth, the pressure is on the top clubs to be the best every year. We do have a relatively good squad.

Most of the other England managers Southgate gets compared to didn't have the luxury of this. Graham Taylor for example, took the England job at the end of the period when English teams were banned from Europe and the quality level had plummeted. It took us nearly a decade to recover from that at club level. It also shows what a great job Bobby Robson did. We look at Venables as another example. Did very well with limited players and only sacked for off field activities. Was never an FA man.

Even the so called "Golden Generation" of Beckham et al were coached and came into English football at a time when it wasn't competitive with the European leagues and clubs, and the level of coaching was incredibly inferior.

Southgate has very much been England manager at the right time. He's had players who've received the best coaching at all levels of their careers. They've had exposure to the best coaches the world has to offer. We got through because of this, and not because of any tactical prowess Southgate has. You could see it in every game we played. The quality we have eventually got us through to the final, where we were badly exposed by a team that's coached well and players who are of similar ability at club level. Every team we played caused us problems though, they were all well coached and the players knew exactly what was being asked of them. Rice, Bellingham, Foden, and Kane are all great clubs players, with Bellingham even being a likely Ballon D'or winner. We've seen this over many years, and every one of them would get into every club team in the world. They don't become bad players because they put an England shirt on.

All the stats about Gareth Southgate being a great manager for England are BS. We've never had players as technically good and well coached as we do now. We're wasting them without a real coach in charge.

I think the only thing that could be levelled at the players is that not enough go and play in other cultures so when they play the top clubs in Europe or play against the top teams in internationals they don't fully know what to expect.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

Favourable draw again imo. Italy beat Austria, Spain and Belgium on the way to beating us in the final. 

I don’t think we get to the final on the other side of the draw.

Ultimately, we were the second best side in the tournament. Germany and Denmark weren't easy games either. I can't think of a team that I'd say 'deserved' to be there more than we did, whereas I would definitely say that about Germany this time round. 

[HanoiVillan]

6 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said:

The culture change in the squad, while I think there has been a shift and Southgate probably (likely) played his part, I’m not sure how much is due to him.

When I think of or hear the rhetoric of individual club camps within the squad, my immediate thinking is Ferdinand/Rooney/Neville/Beckham in the Man Utd corner,  Lampard, Terry and Cole in the Chelsea corner, Gerrard/Carragher in the Liverpool corner…I can envisage there being an issue there that needed rectifying.

I look at the squad in 2016 (pre Southgate) and I’m not seeing the same potential toxicity in the names there. As V4E says, the world has kinda changed in that regard too.

I just wonder if this animosity was on it’s way out anyway and Southgate has nurtured the more positive atmosphere, rather than creating it as such.

 

But I don’t consume as much England football as you guys so I’m not concrete on this musing. But I do wonder it.

I think it's a mix of three things: some of it is about the decline of tabloid media and the changing tastes of football news consumers, some of it is about the retirement of a few particularly 'challenging' individuals (and also their wives), and some of it is down to Southgate professionalising how we approach tournaments. I think it would be difficult to put a precise proportion on each of those things, but I think they've all been important.