foreveryoung Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Latest media topic "we all owe him a apology ". No we don't! He has still scraped his way to a final, reverting back to the boring football yesterday in the 2nd half, very lucky with the late goal yet again. Watkins and Palmer are not impact subs, they are starters. An starting Kane against Spain will almost guarantee us losing the final. I'll give Gareth a pat on the back for getting us to the final. But the worry in every game, has not been are the players good enough. It's what is the manager gonna bore us with in this game. Move over Gareth, let's go the World Cup with a top progressive manager, an entertain the fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 11 VT Supporter Share Posted July 11 The narrative being pushed that actually his subs are all right because some of them have worked and he's made them at the right time is infuriating. That's not how it works 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 11 VT Supporter Share Posted July 11 10 hours ago, villa4europe said: To be fair to him for as bad as overplaying kane has been his decision making on Ollie or Toney has been spot on so far His decision making on which player to bring on has been spot on, but his decision making on when to bring them on has still been poor. Kane has been so so bad. He shouldn't be starting games, but in the world where obviously he will start because he's captain, keeping him on beyond 60 minutes in any of these games has been the wrong decision. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 11 VT Supporter Share Posted July 11 18 hours ago, Mic09 said: I read a lot about Southgate bringing 'togetherness' to the England camp and bringing the nation together. BBC is full of it. I am a big Southgate critic, but I do appreciate, on paper, he has taken England deep into each of his tournaments. Not an easy feat (even if he is very lucky with his draws). But what is this 'togetherness' BS? People are reluctant to watch football, players talk crap during pressers, even the media have largely turned on Southgate, how does this 'togetherness' manifest itself exactly? I think it's quite obvious that probably Southgate's biggest asset, and the thing he's done most for the team, is improving the morale of the team and promoting that togetherness. You don't have to look very hard for the stories of the infighting and the club splits in the england camp in previous regimes. Southgate has completely got rid of that. We haven't had a more cohesive England squad in my lifetime. Southgate is miles off it tactically, and I'm as critical as anyone when it comes to that. He is not a top manager in that respect. But I think to deny what he's done behind the scenes for the England team is silly. How he manages the squad off the pitch, especially at tournaments, is the main thing that's got him to this point. Would a better manager have won us something? Yes, in my opinion. However, easy draws or not, it's not a coincidence that Gareth has done well, and that cohesiveness is the main driver of that, imo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Kane has been woeful and certainly cost us. How many times has Saka got in behind and cut it back into an empty penalty area? We’ve been getting away with it somehow and having subs come on and instantly improve us several times shows just how much Kane is holding us back. He’ll still start the final, guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 11 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I think it's quite obvious that probably Southgate's biggest asset, and the thing he's done most for the team, is improving the morale of the team and promoting that togetherness. You don't have to look very hard for the stories of the infighting and the club splits in the england camp in previous regimes. Southgate has completely got rid of that. We haven't had a more cohesive England squad in my lifetime. Southgate is miles off it tactically, and I'm as critical as anyone when it comes to that. He is not a top manager in that respect. But I think to deny what he's done behind the scenes for the England team is silly. How he manages the squad off the pitch, especially at tournaments, is the main thing that's got him to this point. Would a better manager have won us something? Yes, in my opinion. However, easy draws or not, it's not a coincidence that Gareth has done well, and that cohesiveness is the main driver of that, imo Yes, tactically he is very average but he is doing something right to get to the business end of all these tournaments. That squad cohesion is not a given from a more tactically astute manager either. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 21 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Yes, tactically he is very average but he is doing something right to get to the business end of all these tournaments. That squad cohesion is not a given from a more tactically astute manager either. Whilst true, he has once again had an incredibly favourable draw. The Dutch were a fairly stiff test but he’s mainly getting to the business ends of tournaments because he’s avoiding the good teams (then losing when he meets one). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 5 minutes ago, Genie said: Whilst true, he has once again had an incredibly favourable draw. The Dutch were a fairly stiff test but he’s mainly getting to the business ends of tournaments because he’s avoiding the good teams (then losing when he meets one). If 'getting incredibly lucky draws' is something Southgate is able to do because fortune keeps smiling on him, maybe we should never let him go 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 (edited) 2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: If 'getting incredibly lucky draws' is something Southgate is able to do because fortune keeps smiling on him, maybe we should never let him go The thing about luck, is that it always runs out eventually. You just know the next poor sod who replaces him is going to get “group of death” over and over again and the story will be that they aren’t as good as Southgate. Edited July 11 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 5 minutes ago, Genie said: The thing about luck, is that it always runs out eventually. You just know the next poor sod who replaces him is going to get “group of death” over and over again and the story will be that they aren’t as good as Southgate. With the way tournaments are ever expanding having a ‘group of death’ is becoming a thing of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Whatever happens he has to go to give the next guy a chance to build for the next world cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 4 minutes ago, LondonLax said: With the way tournaments are ever expanding having a ‘group of death’ is becoming a thing of the past. Spain, Italy, Croatia & surprisingly plucky Albania this Euro was pretty hardcore. The Austria, France, Holland and Poland group might have also ruined Englands chance of progressing given how poor we were at the start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 7 minutes ago, Genie said: The thing about luck, is that it always runs out eventually. You just know the next poor sod who replaces him is going to get “group of death” over and over again and the story will be that they aren’t as good as Southgate. 1 minute ago, LondonLax said: With the way tournaments are ever expanding having a ‘group of death’ is becoming a thing of the past. Spain-Italy-Croatia was one in this tournament, they'll continue to exist in the Euros I would think, unless we move to a 32-team model (which is possible). I'm being mostly facetious in suggesting Southgate is good because he's a 'lucky general', but I think it's worth considering that this luck is partially self-made, ie one reason we have had easy runs in most of these knockouts is from winning the group. Mostly I just think 'luck' is kind of a neutral argument, I see it mostly being thrown at him by people who want him sacked but 'we should get rid of him because he's lucky' makes no more sense (and arguably less) than 'we should keep him because he's lucky'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Just now, HanoiVillan said: I see it mostly being thrown at him by people who want him sacked but 'we should get rid of him because he's lucky' makes no more sense (and arguably less) than 'we should keep him because he's lucky'. Nobody is saying get rid because he’s lucky, the message is he is getting to the business end of tournaments because he’s consistently avoided the better teams (and therefore artificially inflating his achievements). He has won just 6 of 27 games against the top 10 sides. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Brilliant 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 All I know is I've followed England for many years and seen us not qualify for tournaments, not get past the group stages. Not get past quarters and semis. In fact semis of world cup 1990 and 96 Euros was seen as a success. Southgate has taken us to two finals, a semi and a quarter. I think he deserves some respect whatever happens on Sunday. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 11 VT Supporter Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: Yes, tactically he is very average but he is doing something right to get to the business end of all these tournaments. That squad cohesion is not a given from a more tactically astute manager either. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 16 minutes ago, Genie said: Nobody is saying get rid because he’s lucky, the message is he is getting to the business end of tournaments because he’s consistently avoided the better teams (and therefore artificially inflating his achievements). He has won just 6 of 27 games against the top 10 sides. Exactly this. I believe this is only the 2nd time we have progressed past a top 10 opponent under Southgate, the other being Denmark (who were 10th in 2020) in extra-time. Yet we have made 2 Euro finals and a World Cup semi-final, I would imagine this is almost an unprecedented run of good fortune. His record against sides approaching our strength is extremely poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpTheVilla26 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 Nobody owes him an apology. For much of this Tournament we've looked poor as a side, sat far too deep and relied on a special moment to drag us through. Last night, he made the right subs and it paid off. But before that, once Holland adapted their tactics, he still spent 35 mins watching what was happening and being slow to react. He's lucky that the squad we have has a lot of very good and some world class players who can produce what they do. If he was a club manager, with the odd good player and mainly average ones, he'd be sacked within 3 months. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Genie said: Nobody is saying get rid because he’s lucky, the message is he is getting to the business end of tournaments because he’s consistently avoided the better teams (and therefore artificially inflating his achievements). He has won just 6 of 27 games against the top 10 sides. How does that record compare with other top 10 sides out of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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