HanoiVillan Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 20 minutes ago, bobzy said: You're missing group games for some reason. Because I don't think they matter really. Pretty embarrassing for Argentina to have lost to Saudi Arabia! Oh but they won the World Cup so who cares. Groups are for getting out of, something Southgate has done each time and many of his predecessors failed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 24 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Because I don't think they matter really. Pretty embarrassing for Argentina to have lost to Saudi Arabia! Oh but they won the World Cup so who cares. Groups are for getting out of, something Southgate has done each time and many of his predecessors failed to do. Groups don't matter, third place doesn't matter... you're solely focused on winning tournaments, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 Southgate’s record against top teams is terrible but most of those games are friendlies and nations league so it doesn’t matter ok so just take tournament games and it’s even worse yeah but group games and 3rd place don’t matter on those criteria, fair play he’s probably the best national team manager of all time 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 If you exclude every game against a top team except for the ones he’s won then he’s got a great record 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: If you exclude every game against a top team except for the ones he’s won then he’s got a great record Yeah. To be fair to Southgate, he's won all the games he's won. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 Give this generation of attacking talent to ANY decent manager (imagine Ancelotti, Guardiola, Emery, Klopp etc. etc.) and we would not be lining up 4-2-3-1 and struggling to make chances. It's such a **** waste. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 16 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Southgate’s record against top teams is terrible but most of those games are friendlies and nations league so it doesn’t matter ok so just take tournament games and it’s even worse yeah but group games and 3rd place don’t matter on those criteria, fair play he’s probably the best national team manager of all time I will admit I am, to a certain extent, playing devil's advocate, because the cosy consensus in this thread irritates me. But I will absolutely fight to the death that **** third place playoffs don't matter, and that including friendlies in a manager's record is bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said: Because I don't think they matter really. Pretty embarrassing for Argentina to have lost to Saudi Arabia! Oh but they won the World Cup so who cares. Groups are for getting out of, something Southgate has done each time and many of his predecessors failed to do. Maybe Southgate has better players... What we've done is in spite of him because he has quality players at his disposal, he has England's best ever striker, the players in his selection pool have won more at youth levels than any other England set up in history, pair that with lucky draws yet we still set up to snatch victories in the majority of games, he's had so long with these players yet we have no patterns of play, it's a shambles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 (edited) 48 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I will admit I am, to a certain extent, playing devil's advocate, because the cosy consensus in this thread irritates me. But I will absolutely fight to the death that **** third place playoffs don't matter, and that including friendlies in a manager's record is bullshit. I’d agree with you. But what Stefan is saying is if you take friendlies out then his record gets worse. And if you add group games in then his record is still worse. So including those games you don’t think should count just does Southgate a favour So playing Devil’s advocate is fine if there’s a counter argument in there. If Southgate’s record against big teams got better if you only looked at knockout games then I’d take your point. But it doesn’t. It gets worse. So you can discount all the games you like, whatever way you cut it his record against big teams is really shit Edited March 25 by Stevo985 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 (edited) 52 minutes ago, villa4europe said: Maybe Southgate has better players... What we've done is in spite of him because he has quality players at his disposal, he has England's best ever striker, the players in his selection pool have won more at youth levels than any other England set up in history, pair that with lucky draws yet we still set up to snatch victories in the majority of games, he's had so long with these players yet we have no patterns of play, it's a shambles Kane is England's best ever striker? He might have the most goals but we've had better strikers in the past. All round I think the golden gen was a better team than this one. There was quality in all positions but the managers failed where Southgate has succeeded in creating a great team environment. The quality of opposition was better then though. Edited March 25 by PaulC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJCB Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 1 hour ago, bobzy said: Yeah. To be fair to Southgate, he's won all the games he's won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 46 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I’d agree with you. But what Stefan is saying is if you take friendlies out then his record gets worse. And if you add group games in then his record is still worse. So including those games you don’t think should count just does Southgate a favour So playing Devil’s advocate is fine if there’s a counter argument in there. If Southgate’s record against big teams got better if you only looked at knockout games then I’d take your point. But it doesn’t. It gets worse. So you can discount all the games you like, whatever way you cut it his record against big teams is really shit 'His record gets worse' if you're bothered about his win percentage against top 10 teams. As I've said, I don't really care about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 I think the Southgate issue is confusing. He has done a better job than a lot of English managers so does deserve credit for that (2018 was probably his best achievement Then again he has also underachieved with the set of players he now has available, Euro 2021 England should have won and with the squad he has them playing Lambert like football at times 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 10 minutes ago, PaulC said: Kane is England's best ever striker? He might have the most goals but we've had better strikers in the past. All round I think the golden gen was a better team than this one. There was quality in all positions but the managers failed where Southgate has succeeded in creating a great team environment. The quality of opposition was better then though. I think the golden generation had a lot of problems that these players don't, mainly they were "world class" Premier league players and international football is not the Premier league, Gerrard in particular with the any team in the world nonsense was like no one was watching barca and Spain dominate with a complete different brand of football, I think this group of players don't have that problem, the 2 star players already play abroad and a few more of them could too (if the PL money wasn't so good) And that's before you then factor in those players mostly never came close to replicating their club performances at International level The only thing the golden gen had was a more rounded squad, Southgate hasnt got a defence, his squads are top heavy Kane as England's best ever striker is definitley a debate, he'll end up as England's top scorer, would have beaten shearers PL record if he'd stayed, again I don't think many English strikers in my lifetime go to Bayern and do what he's done, shearer doesn't his game was too English, kane does genuinely walk in to any team in the world and score a lot of goals But all that doesn't matter, I don't believe that looking back at the golden generation or previous generations and saying they had better squads is an excuse, Southgate has the players, it's the quality of the players that is getting us through not the quality of the manager, they are doing it in spite of him not because of him 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 25 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: 'His record gets worse' if you're bothered about his win percentage against top 10 teams. As I've said, I don't really care about this. Ok but that’s what the post was about and what you were replying to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 16 minutes ago, Zatman said: I think the Southgate issue is confusing. He has done a better job than a lot of English managers so does deserve credit for that (2018 was probably his best achievement Then again he has also underachieved with the set of players he now has available, Euro 2021 England should have won and with the squad he has them playing Lambert like football at times He's been proper lucky with the draws. He's basically beat everyone we should and no one we could. The Italy and France loses were because of his limited ablility, not the player quality. It's quite shocking how the media still aren't touching him. You get the odd outlet questioning his abilty, but most are saying how happy the team is?? Iv'e been saying from the start, the FA blatently briefed the media to keep off his back, an it definately shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 10 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Ok but that’s what the post was about and what you were replying to I don't really understand why you're patronisingly intervening in this conversation, but I can assure you I'm able to read so please do one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 48 minutes ago, villa4europe said: I think the golden generation had a lot of problems that these players don't, mainly they were "world class" Premier league players and international football is not the Premier league, Gerrard in particular with the any team in the world nonsense was like no one was watching barca and Spain dominate with a complete different brand of football, I think this group of players don't have that problem, the 2 star players already play abroad and a few more of them could too (if the PL money wasn't so good) And that's before you then factor in those players mostly never came close to replicating their club performances at International level The only thing the golden gen had was a more rounded squad, Southgate hasnt got a defence, his squads are top heavy Kane as England's best ever striker is definitley a debate, he'll end up as England's top scorer, would have beaten shearers PL record if he'd stayed, again I don't think many English strikers in my lifetime go to Bayern and do what he's done, shearer doesn't his game was too English, kane does genuinely walk in to any team in the world and score a lot of goals But all that doesn't matter, I don't believe that looking back at the golden generation or previous generations and saying they had better squads is an excuse, Southgate has the players, it's the quality of the players that is getting us through not the quality of the manager, they are doing it in spite of him not because of him Totally, where I differ is I really think it does matter. This is the first group of English players whereby it's not just hype to say a few are world class. We've never ever in my (now long) lifetime had genuine world class players. We've had plenty of bullshit about how good our players have been in the past but this is the first time I can remember when someone in Italy, Spain or Germany would pick out some of our players as being the best in the position in the world or at least in Europe. We're not talking up Lampard and Gerrard when there's Xavi and Iniesta, or Beckham and Scholes when there's Zidane and Figo. This lot are the real thing and there's a reason Kane is at Bayern and Bellingham is a **** Real legend already. Foden gets into a side that contains some of the world's best talent, it isn't just hubris, most of the worlds top talent want the PL money and not only that. If they want to play against the best every week they have to play in England. You're totally right about where we lack, central defenders and a goalkeeper. Which is why it's even more absurd that we have a coach that looks to defend against the better teams. It's suicide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted March 25 VT Supporter Share Posted March 25 (edited) 38 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: I don't really understand why you're patronisingly intervening in this conversation, but I can assure you I'm able to read so please do one. Ok. Apologies if I came across as patronising. I was genuinely trying to understand the point being made. I’ll call it a day Edited March 25 by Stevo985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 4 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Ok. Apologies if I came across as patronising. I was genuinely trying to understand the point being made. I’ll call it a day No worries. Similarly, apologies for getting annoyed. But yes, I think it's time for me to call it a day in this thread. Time for some other voices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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