Popular Post dn1982 Posted August 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2018 Let’s stop seeing the top 6 as doing well. We should be looking at top 2 and finishing in the playoffs is failure but with a silver lining. Once we realise that 3rd to 6th isn’t actually a promotion place we can judge Bruce properly. We aren’t 4th. We are behind the points needed to get automatic we shouldn’t wait until we are outside the top 6 to act. If we fall behind the top 2 we should act before it’s too late to give the new man a chance of automatic never mind the torture of the playoffs. 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kiltorken Posted August 30, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2018 I love all the pontificating by the "future of football" people here who think their opinions on the way to play football has to be played is the only relevant opinion. France won the world Cup recently with very negative, boring football relying largely on moments of individual brillance and resolute defending. Chelsea won the league last year playing defensive counterattacking football. Of course it would be great to get a manager in who could play man City style swashbuckling attacking football dominating games and winning the league or even to a lessor extent like Jokanovic's Fulham last season, who incidentally barely got over the line against by an odd goal in the playoff against our "dinosaur" tactics in his 3rd season at the club after failing in his previous playoff attempt. Fair enough if people want a particular style of play but it doesn't mean it will be successful or that every other opinion is to be ridiculed. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, TRO said: Not sure what the point is........i see a major contrast between Saunders and Taylor, but loved them both. There is no perfect style. The point of comparison that I was making is that Bielsa is obviously serious about his work, studying analysis that I highly doubt Bruce would ever even contemplate. As a result he is now familiar with his competition in detail, probably safe to say his near perfect start is testament to his research. So the point was in relation to your choosing Benitez over Bruce and not Bielsa. I'd take Bielsa over both, that's all really He isn't afraid to tell a professional footballer they are going to pick up rubbish for 3 hours because that's how long it takes the average supporter to earn the coin to buy a match-day ticket. What some might consider pointless I consider to be humbling and character building. Agree completely there is no perfect style, but there are strengths and weaknesses to any given approach and you want to choose appropriately. Edited August 30, 2018 by A'Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommo_b Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 So am I correct in thinking Biesla is this years Gary Monk... sorry I mean Jaap Stam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villianusa Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 He is doing okay and that is from someone who supports him more than most on here. We have garnered more points that this time last year but the performances are very much the same. The team is turning out some turgid stuff while under his supervision. While we are winning or not losing too many the majority of the fans will support him, but if he loses a few that he is expected to win and I believe it could be the start of the end. It started this week even though it was only the cup. He has been given enough time now to have the team at least play cohesively no matter the result. I know he has bought in more new players and it will take them a little to settle, but this spin cycle can't continue. He has come up with similar excuses about his teams under performing for him, if I was the manager I would be seriously worried. The team showed against Wolves they can play, he needs to start getting more of those performances. If I was the owner of the club and kept hearing my manager say the team isn't performing as the he expected, then I would be looking for a new manager. I still have faith in Bruce but it is waning, not because I'm not happy with the position, but I'm just not inspired by his words much anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Tommo_b said: So am I correct in thinking Biesla is this years Gary Monk... sorry I mean Jaap Stam? Sacked during the season? Very possibly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 6 hours ago, Stevo985 said: Great. All I was saying is it's possible to enjoy a season and still want change. I hope you continue to enjoy watching us under Steve Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Dave J said: Brilliant read thank you for posting this - I would only add this, you speak of his promotions and knowledge of the game - but would you agree these two facets are born out of longevity in the game as opposed to having a particular skill set ? thanks again though Agreed, I think it's safe to assume longevity and the success he encountered as a player would be the underlying reasons for this. "an honest trier who made the absolute most of limited natural ability" - Ponting, Ivan (2000). Manchester United: The Red Army I think that quote on Bruce as a player is probably applicable to him as a manager as well. While I don't really like to think of him as a dinosaur, he himself does not put himself in the bracket of 'talented' managers saying that he hopes to see more young British managers given a crack at success and eventually obtain the top jobs On numerous occasions, in various interviews, I have read that he has wanted time off from the game and questioned whether he still had it in him. There's something very human about Steve Bruce. I mean he signed and debuted his son in the Premier League I'm pretty confident. The cheeky bugger probably did it out of love more than merit. But that's neither here nor there. The expectation at Sunderland was European football (regardless of likeliness) and Bruce was afforded certain transfers on the condition he obtain that objective. When things got restless he accused the fans of having an agenda against him because he was a Geordie. I liken that to him saying he was only aiming for us to avoid relegation in his first season with us, or bemoaning playing personnel and error for our shortcomings and inability to play a certain way. At Hull he said he liked that the owner never queried his methods or suggested alternate formations or tactics.. Scrutiny and feedback is everywhere in sport and I think Bruce can be a little sensitive or reactionary when he has no issues handing out the fault. "Who would want my job?" he says after Chester's error at Reading. I'll tell you who should first and foremost, Bruce, you! You're the bloody manager. Read an interview with Nuno and it's about vision. Vision of what you can achieve within your given environment. He said he approached the championship like it was the top division because while there may be nuances to the championship it is still professional football and he is committed to winning, something he learned at Valencia and Porto. Read an interview or article on Fulham and Jokanovic and it was all about drills, drills drills to prepare Fulham as best he could. They boasted the highest total passes, highest completion, highest average possession, most accurate short passes, second highest shots on target in the championship. They structured their training to hit quotas and develop skills to obtain these targets. They also were relentless in pressing. What does Bruce do well? Hull kept 18 clean sheets out of their 24 victories in one promotion campaign, and 18 of their 24 victories in their first promotion were by one goal, again showing a tight organised unit. I don't know much about his promotion with Blues other than he spent 20 million pounds back in '07 in the championship. I think convincing owners to let him splash the cash is a trait of his. He left Hull after frustration over transfers. Had Sunderland spend in return for European placing and we all know he hasn't been short on recruitment in his time here. To get back to actual qualities I think he learned to be a winner at Man Utd and that has stuck with him. We all witnessed the influence someone like Terry had at the club. I'd say Bruce while having a different demeanour might have a similar presence. After enduring another one of my long posts I'd like to thank you if you're still with me. I'm of the opinion that Bruce is not quite the dinosaur people label him as. That said, he's at a new club, with new challenges and expectations, so far having failed to deliver. If he wants to establish himself as Aston Villa manager, he needs to find the next few gears this season and challenge himself to play beyond the performances of yesteryear, highlighting our players strengths and exposing our opponents weaknesses. I think 4-4-1-1 is a good formation for the players we have: Elmo - Chester - Tuanzebe/loan - Hutton Bolasie - DM (Hourihane/Thor/Whelan) - McGinn - El Ghazi/Adomah Grealish Kodjia Bruce lost out to two promising managers last season in Nuno and Jokanovic and his rival for the best record in this division in Warnock. This season he is up against Leeds who are led by Bielsa and Hernandez who even at 33 contests Grealish for best AM. Pulis who is no mug with a very strong attack from what I gather. Stoke who have a very strong squad, despite a slow start. West Brom, also with the quality to contest promotion. And the rest is relatively unknown to me, except I expect Derby to be top half. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, kiltorken said: I love all the pontificating by the "future of football" people here who think their opinions on the way to play football has to be played is the only relevant opinion. France won the world Cup recently with very negative, boring football relying largely on moments of individual brillance and resolute defending. Chelsea won the league last year playing defensive counterattacking football. Of course it would be great to get a manager in who could play man City style swashbuckling attacking football dominating games and winning the league or even to a lessor extent like Jokanovic's Fulham last season, who incidentally barely got over the line against by an odd goal in the playoff against our "dinosaur" tactics in his 3rd season at the club after failing in his previous playoff attempt. Fair enough if people want a particular style of play but it doesn't mean it will be successful or that every other opinion is to be ridiculed. Fair enough, well witchever style of football Bruce is playing isn't good enough. I enjoyed alot of the "counterattacking" football under MON etc for example although some of his decisions too would drive me crazy. We don't actually have a set style. Whenever we have a good performance and play some top stuff we are quickly brought down to earth by baffling decisions which seem to reverse whatever progress we seemingly had made. I honestly don't think many Villa fans have a particular style of play they feel is the be all and end all. Just GOOD football and decision making! Edited August 31, 2018 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Do people actually think Bruce could implement a different 'style'? A manager's 'style' is just a reflection of their personality in a way. It's the quality behind their style and the quality of their ideas and how effectively they can translate that into something practical which determines the success of a manager. Bruce and Allardyce arguably have a similar 'style' but there is an obvious gap in quality there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holteend1982 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 There must have been an awful lot of rubbish around the training ground if bielsa had the whole squad picking it up for 3 hours. Can't deny he's got them playing well, I think we all knew he would for a little while. Problem with bielsa is when things start to go wrong he makes poor decisions and can't seem to turn it round. I will be surprised if he's still there come the end of the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveAV1 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 hours ago, kiltorken said: I love all the pontificating by the "future of football" people here who think their opinions on the way to play football has to be played is the only relevant opinion. France won the world Cup recently with very negative, boring football relying largely on moments of individual brillance and resolute defending. Chelsea won the league last year playing defensive counterattacking football. Of course it would be great to get a manager in who could play man City style swashbuckling attacking football dominating games and winning the league or even to a lessor extent like Jokanovic's Fulham last season, who incidentally barely got over the line against by an odd goal in the playoff against our "dinosaur" tactics in his 3rd season at the club after failing in his previous playoff attempt. Fair enough if people want a particular style of play but it doesn't mean it will be successful or that every other opinion is to be ridiculed. For most complaining about Steve Bruce, the style is secondary to what is actually being achieved. As you rightly say there are many successful ways to create a winning team and sure fast flowing football such as Man City are currently enjoying would be very nice. But that misses the point, what is being presented week in and week out isn’t a consistent game plan that can be successfully adhered to and that produces winning football, whatever the style. Bruce doesn’t seem to know what he wants from the team and so they play in a way that is equally unsure. He has had plenty of time and resources to form a plan of what he wants, but seems to keep falling short. Not by a lot, but fine margins and all that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted August 31, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted August 31, 2018 6 hours ago, Tomaszk said: I hope you continue to enjoy watching us under Steve Bruce. Thx babes x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Michael118 said: Do people actually think Bruce could implement a different 'style'? A manager's 'style' is just a reflection of their personality in a way. It's the quality behind their style and the quality of their ideas and how effectively they can translate that into something practical which determines the success of a manager. Bruce and Allardyce arguably have a similar 'style' but there is an obvious gap in quality there. If managing Aston Villa under our current owners doesn't inspire Bruce to start asking the question, "what do I need to do in order to get this team playing at Premier League standards and beyond?" Then I'm afraid Bruce has passed up an excellent opportunity to add another promotion to his trophy cabinet and the chance to work with a club with infinite potential under the right guidance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael118 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, A'Villan said: If managing Aston Villa under our current owners doesn't inspire Bruce to start asking the question, "what do I need to do in order to get this team playing at Premier League standards and beyond?" Then I'm afraid Bruce has passed up an excellent opportunity to add another promotion to his trophy cabinet and the chance to work with a club with infinite potential under the right guidance. I've never seen him as a manager who can reliably keep a team in the Premier League. That would have been my benchmark for quality when appointing a manager and he falls short of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eholm Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Bruce latest comments from presser: “I think that’s the disappointing thing since I’ve been at the club, we lurch into crisis very quickly". Just go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 He's back... “I think that’s the disappointing thing since I’ve been at the club, we lurch into crisis very quickly. “Listen, I understand we were woeful and embarrassing the other night and it hurts me to say that. I can understand the criticism, but to say there’s a crisis… We should be looking forward to the future. “Look, we got to the play-off final and we’ve lost six of that team who got us there. So far we haven’t been able to replace them. “We’re just in the process, with the new owners. Judge us after 12 or 15 games and that's the most important part. We’re unbeaten. It was only a week ago when people were watching us against Brentford saying, ‘That’s the best Villa performance I’ve seen for a long time’. “It was a week ago! Now all of a sudden we’re in crisis. That goes with the territory and I can understand it and I can understand the criticism after the other night because, believe me, I was the first to criticise myself.” --- Crisis? Has he been reading Alex's twitter again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Also... we've lost six who got us to playoffs? Johnston Terry Snod Grabban Onomah? Key cog that he was. ...Samba? ...Tshibola? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 24 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: He's back... “I think that’s the disappointing thing since I’ve been at the club, we lurch into crisis very quickly. “Listen, I understand we were woeful and embarrassing the other night and it hurts me to say that. I can understand the criticism, but to say there’s a crisis… We should be looking forward to the future. “Look, we got to the play-off final and we’ve lost six of that team who got us there. So far we haven’t been able to replace them. “We’re just in the process, with the new owners. Judge us after 12 or 15 games and that's the most important part. We’re unbeaten. It was only a week ago when people were watching us against Brentford saying, ‘That’s the best Villa performance I’ve seen for a long time’. “It was a week ago! Now all of a sudden we’re in crisis. That goes with the territory and I can understand it and I can understand the criticism after the other night because, believe me, I was the first to criticise myself.” --- Crisis? Has he been reading Alex's twitter again? To be fair to the guy, whatever your perspective may be anyone would think we have been in a constant state of crisis with the ongoing crusade to have him sacked. Most clubs only sack their Manager when doing badly, i.e. During crisis. Id rather he just shut up about this stuff now because its not achieving anything positive but it's not as though he's fabricating it all. You can't have 1500 pages of Bruce out and then call him out for referencing it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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