Stevo985 Posted April 30, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted April 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Just on this part, we clearly can play good football. I've said before a lot of the games I've been to have been boring. Saturday wasn't. And one of the reasons was because we were behind early on, and so had to really make the running, attacking to get back in the game. My preference would be for that attacking approach to be the default, rather than the more cautious approach we usually take. That's my criticism - it's not that we can't play good (attacking football, but that we too often don't play good football. Too often too careless, too long ball from the back. We're a good side for this level when we go for it. I honestly think the majority of the time we do play good football. I think some people don't take into account the level we're at. I'd wager the vast majority of teams in this league would love to play football like we do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: I honestly think the majority of the time we do play good football. I think some people don't take into account the level we're at. I'd wager the vast majority of teams in this league would love to play football like we do. Exactly, just because we have good players playing in the second tier doesn't make them world class, they're still the same players with the same abilities and the same faults whether they're playing in the Premier League or the Conference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 13 hours ago, terrytini said: Yup. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to consider him having done a good job whether we are promoted or not. As a few examples......in my own personal view of course ....... I see a huge, huge, progression overall from a year ago. That’s a good job. I see a far far better spirit and character in the side, that’s a good job. I see a far better balance in the squad, that’s a good job. I see a much improved Points and Goals tally and a good fight made for Promotion, and that’s a good job. I see as fans we now are expecting to Win rather than expecting to lose, that’s a good job. I enjoy going to Away games for the first time in nearly 10 years, that’s a good job. Most of all, I enjoy watching us - much of the time - and that’s a good job. I'd say, considering we're arguably the biggest club in the Championship, with one of the most expensive assembled squad's, it would of been a crime had he not achieved the examples you've pointed out. This is a manager who has a vast knowledge of Championship football and who's achieved promotion with far less talented teams. Let's not forget after the wolves game promotion seemed a certainty. So much for a far better character and spirit ? For me, the points tally and amount of goals scored are mere crumbs of comfort without promotion. If we don't go up, then I'm sorry, but, for me the manager had failed to achieve what he was brought to Aston Villa to do. IMO, that is. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 14 hours ago, TRO said: So what? well there's a shock with him and his players. possibly yes.....i can name many teams with a stronger centre mid, many teams with stronger full backs......yeah overall, possibly fourth. you're dead right on your last bit. Would you of predicted Cardiff for promotion at the start of the season ? Would Bruce have took Cardiff to automatic promotion ? I don't think so. I don't think he would of took Wolves to promotion either. Accept the fact, he was appointed to get us back in the premiership. If he fails to do that, then he's failed. Like it or not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: I'd say, considering we're arguably the biggest club in the Championship, with one of the most expensive assembled squad's, it would of been a crime had he not achieved the examples you've pointed out. This is a manager who has a vast knowledge of Championship football and who's achieved promotion with far less talented teams. Let's not forget after the wolves game promotion seemed a certainty. So much for a far better character and spirit ? For me, the points tally and amount of goals scored are mere crumbs of comfort without promotion. If we don't go up, then I'm sorry, but, for me the manager had failed to achieve what he was brought to Aston Villa to do. IMO, that is. Who said that?.....That is pure conjecture.....but maybe someone thought it? We maybe one of the biggest clubs in the Championship, but so are Sunderland......Its what you do, not what you are. You are of course entitled to your opinion Sheepy and you have to live with the disappointment of your expectation, unless you adjust it to make footballing life a little more bearable by appreciating the day to day enhancements that we have achieved since his arrival.....If your satisfaction is purely gleaned from achieving targets or trophies, you could be a disappointed soul.....Man U before SAF went 20 years without a trophy.....Before Sir Ron we languished from season to season with a dispirited set up.....There are no guarantee's in this world of football.....It is self satisfying to appreciate the enhancements IMO. To under value the character and Spirit that SB has managed to create is very,very harsh for me .....so many others before him have failed to do it....No one is ever going get you to appreciate the work of Steve Bruce because winner takes all with your view......I get the view that even if he gets us up, some other obstacle will be sought to resist your appreciation for him, because you will look for one. But we haven't failed yet.....lets debate it when we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 24 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: Would you of predicted Cardiff for promotion at the start of the season ? Would Bruce have took Cardiff to automatic promotion ? I don't think so. I don't think he would of took Wolves to promotion either. Accept the fact, he was appointed to get us back in the premiership. If he fails to do that, then he's failed. Like it or not. No I would not have predicted Cardiff for promotion, but equally, I do not under estimate Neil Warnock either( love or loathe him)....He is tailor made for this division....but I didn't think Wolves would either and Fulham made a very iffy start, wouldn't have predicted that either. I have no idea if SB would have taken Cardiff, Wolves or Fulham to promotion......Many things have to happen to gain promotion and a bit of luck ( particularly with injuries) is a welcome bit. Of Course he was appointed to get us back to the Prem......just like lots of managers are appointed to meet the clubs objectives ....as a by product they are also employed to improve many ,many things at the football club. It seems to me with your view......If a horse comes second or third they get shot. Edited April 30, 2018 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carewjust4u Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 If you look at the players we have on paper, this squad has underperformed. Of course, we can argue the reasons and variables that has caused it, but that statement is true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 27 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said: Would you of predicted Cardiff for promotion at the start of the season ? Would Bruce have took Cardiff to automatic promotion ? I don't think so. I don't think he would of took Wolves to promotion either. Accept the fact, he was appointed to get us back in the premiership. If he fails to do that, then he's failed. Like it or not. Since when were you the authority on such matters? People can choose to accept whatever they want to. No matter how often or vociferously you try to make yourself heard I will not accept that he's been a failure, irrespective of what happens between now and June. Oh and also, it's 'would have', not "would of". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, carewjust4u said: If you look at the players we have on paper, this squad has underperformed. Of course, we can argue the reasons and variables that has caused it, but that statement is true. but the game is not played on Paper......else Leicester would never have won the League Title......and Aston Villa would never have won the European cup. Its an individual fans view of the value of players and they can be right and they can be wrong......under performance is an opinion, no matter if 50,000 think it. I think we have made some very poor individual errors this season on occasions that have cost us points and I think the team has reached depths of poor performance on some occasions some of our competitors have not gone quite so low IMO, But that comes back to consistency.....But we have hit the heights too. I think we have some very good players in certain positions.....But there are players like Tom Cairney or Ryan Sessgnon would get in to our side, so would Ruben Neves, not to mention James Maddison.......so don't get too carried away with "On Paper" Edited April 30, 2018 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 30, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted April 30, 2018 53 minutes ago, carewjust4u said: If you look at the players we have on paper, this squad has underperformed. Of course, we can argue the reasons and variables that has caused it, but that statement is true. I agree. It is. But the amount it has underperformed is, imo, very small. We're likely to finish 4-6 points short of 2nd place. 2nd place being where we should finishing, imo. The way some people talk on here you'd think we were finishing 14th. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Stevo985 said: I agree. It is. But the amount it has underperformed is, imo, very small. We're likely to finish 4-6 points short of 2nd place. 2nd place being where we should finishing, imo. The way some people talk on here you'd think we were finishing 14th. Very much this. We've slightly underperformed and for the most part I'm willing to put that down to the vagueries and unpredictability of sport. At this stage im very much pro Bruce and I hope he stays even if we don't go up. This year has been the most fun I've had in years watching the Villa. His buys have other than Hogan all done well and even he's chipped in with some important goals. We've played great at times, played pretty turgid stuff and won and played poorly and lost but it's a long old season and I think most teams would say the same. I should add that I was definitely wavering after our awful start but I'm glad Tony was more patient than me. Players want to play for him, the likes of Snodgrass and Terry are 100% here because of Bruce. The team plays like it give a shizzle. He's given me my Villa back and for that I love him a bit. #Brucein Edited April 30, 2018 by villaglint 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 I have enjoyed this season and I think Bruce has done a great job of changing the mentality and morale in the dressing room. However, if he is one of the best managers in the league and we have one of the best squads then to put it simply we have underachieved. Especially when you look at his poor decisions around squad rotation and personnel changes around that crucial period that really cost us any hope of autos. End of the day if we get promoted via the playoffs then he has done his job. Anything else and I would tell him thank you for everything but sorry not good enough. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave J Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, omariqy said: I have enjoyed this season and I think Bruce has done a great job of changing the mentality and morale in the dressing room. However, if he is one of the best managers in the league and we have one of the best squads then to put it simply we have underachieved. Especially when you look at his poor decisions around squad rotation and personnel changes around that crucial period that really cost us any hope of autos. End of the day if we get promoted via the playoffs then he has done his job. Anything else and I would tell him thank you for everything but sorry not good enough. 100% this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: I agree. It is. But the amount it has underperformed is, imo, very small. We're likely to finish 4-6 points short of 2nd place. 2nd place being where we should finishing, imo. The way some people talk on here you'd think we were finishing 14th. Indeed. Not only is the squad and wages being referred to as if Football Leagues were simply a case of transferring a relative position on a balance sheet to a League Position, you’d think we were mikes and miles off where such a method would get us, whereas in fact had we beaten Cardiff at their place we’d be Second ( for example). Id agree that with Wolves doing their thing we have the quality to have finished Second. But ( thank goodness) football isn’t anywhere near as simplistic as that. And, as you rightly say, we are there all but anyway, not down in 10th. And measuring performance by a simply Binary choice will get us nowhere, this season, next season, any season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) It's really not just the standard of football that has been the problem. It's the 21 games we have failed to win with the majority of them being with poor standard of football. Thats the problem. Edit: I can think of 3 games where we played well out of those 21 games. Edited April 30, 2018 by Vive_La_Villa 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said: It's really not just the standard of football that has been the problem. It's the 21 games we have failed to win with the majority of them being with poor standard of football. Thats the problem. Well , the “ standard of football” ( whatever it means) has been fine by me, not for you - that’s just opinion, you don’t sack a guy for that. But it’s your criticism of the “non - Wins” that has me intrigued......it’s not a measure I’ve ever really used or seen used I must admit, but how many “non- Wins “ would’ve been acceptable ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 7 hours ago, blandy said: Just on this part, we clearly can play good football. I've said before a lot of the games I've been to have been boring. Saturday wasn't. And one of the reasons was because we were behind early on, and so had to really make the running, attacking to get back in the game. My preference would be for that attacking approach to be the default, rather than the more cautious approach we usually take. That's my criticism - it's not that we can't play good (attacking football, but that we too often don't play good football. Too often too careless, too long ball from the back. We're a good side for this level when we go for it. Agreed. And the attacking football largely comes solely when Jack Grealish turns it on, not from the manager. This was our one chance to have a truly dominant season. The only way we'll have this shot again is if we start a mid-00s WBA yo-yo. If we don't go up, next year will be a different kettle of fish. Funnily enough, one that might suit a more Bruce-like cautious approach. But no way could I stomach another 12 months of him whinging about hysteria when the side he's in control of is underperforming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 Just now, terrytini said: Well , the “ standard of football” ( whatever it means) has been fine by me, not for you - that’s just opinion, you don’t sack a guy for that. But it’s your criticism of the “non - Wins” that has me intrigued......it’s not a measure I’ve ever really used or seen used I must admit, but how many “non- Wins “ would’ve been acceptable ? Enough non wins so we finished second. I used that term because out of the 11 games we drew. I can only think us playing well and being unlucky in 3 of them. If you remember us playing well in those games we didn't win then I'm happy for you. I just can't recall it mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 2 hours ago, omariqy said: However, if he is one of the best managers in the league and we have one of the best squads then to put it simply we have underachieved. So he is either one of the Best Managers in the League ( yet you’d sack him !?) OR he isn’t, in which case he hasn’t underachieved .........( yet you’d sack him). So if he was definitely a much poorer Manager he’d have over achieved and you’d keep him ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytini Posted April 30, 2018 Share Posted April 30, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Enough non wins so we finished second. I used that term because out of the 11 games we drew. I can only think us playing well and being unlucky in 3 of them. If you remember us playing well in those games we didn't win then I'm happy for you. I just can't recall it mate. Well without going through them I’d be content to admit we probably didn’t play well in the majority.....as I suspect Fulham didn’t play well in the 20 they didn’t Win . I mean, usually when a good side doesn’t Win it’s a combination of them not playing well and the opposition playing well......but that’s just normal, that’s a truism. Teams - especially Championship teams - don’t play well all the time ? Burnley drew 15 games the year they Won it. I don’t understand the point. (also if we’ve drawn games when playing poorly, well done us !) Edited April 30, 2018 by terrytini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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