Zatman Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 FIFA should consider taking the World Cup off them as not first incident in this tournament Imagine the uproar if this happened somewhere like Qatar or Saudi Arabau 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 1 hour ago, Zatman said: FIFA should consider taking the World Cup off them as not first incident in this tournament Imagine the uproar if this happened somewhere like Qatar or Saudi Arabau something tells me there will be a very big reason as to why they dont... Spoiler but the middle east comment is interesting, there was no trouble in Qatar, you'd expect there to be no trouble in SA, these kind of things wont happen there as its a different crowd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 Shaqiri has retired from Switzerland, these tournaments will never be the same again 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 14 hours ago, OhioVilla said: To be honest, it's totally foreign to us. We don't have even a quarter of the problem that European fans have or any one else. Hopefully this is the wake up call. They definitely thought they could treat this like a random NFL game, and instead, they got the ultimate football crowd experience. Very lucky they didn't see a massive tragedy. Hopefully there are no incidents post match. Fortunately, we don’t have much experience here with having to segregate fans at sporting events. Make all your jokes about the south and George Wallace and Jim Crow, but at sporting events we don’t have to keep opposing fans separate in order to prevent them from killing one another. We have plenty of violence, no doubt, but you just don’t see it regularly and widespread at sports I’m the least patriotic I know. Jingoistic rah rah crap turns my stomach. If I could readily live in another country I would have been there a long time ago. There are clearly thousands of reasons to criticize my country, but this is way down the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 59 minutes ago, Zatman said: Shaqiri has retired from Switzerland, these tournaments will never be the same again I didn't see Haris Seferovic either, another favourite of tournament football with Joao Mario and William Carvalho of Portugal! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 10 hours ago, Zatman said: FIFA should consider taking the World Cup off them as not first incident in this tournament Imagine the uproar if this happened somewhere like Qatar or Saudi Arabau This tournament is the baby of CONMEBOL, an organization of which is not a member. While the sites are obviously located here, CONMEBOL organized and ran all aspects of the tournament. Take away the WC, I don’t care, but don’t ignore facts that confound the narrative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted July 15 Moderator Share Posted July 15 2 hours ago, Nor-Cal Villan said: Fortunately, we don’t have much experience here with having to segregate fans at sporting events. Make all your jokes about the south and George Wallace and Jim Crow, but at sporting events we don’t have to keep opposing fans separate in order to prevent them from killing one another. We have plenty of violence, no doubt, but you just don’t see it regularly and widespread at sports Indeed, it's a nice feature of US sport that you don't need to segregate supporters - it's true in a number of sports in the UK too, but not football. And here's the thing, the US is hosting football, it's inviting football to its shores - and as such it needs to understand the values that come with that sport. I think that's very difficult for the US, as a nation you don't adopt the values of others, you impose your own, and that's very dangerous in this instance. The kind of small town cop mentality we saw last night with the security and policing at the Hard Rock stadium won't work well with the culture of football - a culture you've invited into the nation and now need to embrace - and if it happens where there's a crowd that isn't as family oriented as last nights, then there will be huge trouble. Make no mistake, if those in uniform pushing and striking out at fans from the middle of a crowd of thousands last night had been doing it agains an Eastern European nation, those security staff would have been in extraordinary danger of serious injury or loss of life. Football has its own crowd culture, it's not pretty, its not morally right, but it exists and it is what it is - and the policing that has developed around it is about control, not engagement - it's about a police presence whose main aim is to do nothing, to be just a presence - to act as a barrier between the supporters and their ability to go wherever they please and to prevent supporters engaging with whoever they please. it's lines of police vehicles, horses and uniforms that direct and manipulate the crowd safely to the seats in the stadium, then get them out and away without clashes, a job of shepherding. From what I can see of American policing, and especially that of 21st century American policing, that's the opposite of the way the US deals with things - US law enforcement engages, it opposes and it gets involved - that's not going to make for a peaceful tournament. Culturally perhaps America isn't best placed to accept the idea that other nations might do things better, the whole 'Murica thing and all that comes with it means I have a feeling that 'do less' policing and a watching brief won't fit well with the culture of Oo-rah policing and that the national ego won't take well the advice of nations that understand how to police football crowds properly. Essentially, I like the culture of US sports, fans mixing, tailgating, a friendly rivalry with a lot more words than thrown than bottle of mayonnaise, it's good in ways that the global culture of football isn't - but it's the global culture of football that is coming in 2026 and the culture of global football isn't going to adjust and isn't going to react well to force and my concern is that that's what we'll get. 1 hour ago, Nor-Cal Villan said: This tournament is the baby of CONMEBOL, an organisation of which is not a member. While the sites are obviously located here, CONMEBOL organised and ran all aspects of the tournament. It was co-organised by CONCACAF, of which the US is a member, and the host venues are run by the companies that own them - the decisions made on the ground last night, which lead to fans without tickets gaining entry in their thousands while some fans with tickets were left outside and children were left in tears and struggling for breath in crushes were the decisions of those on the ground at the venue - the law enforcement and venue security staff - those are American decisions. CONMEBOL has to take a share of the responsibility, as do the fans who first attempted to enter without tickets, but the organisation on the ground was the chief fault here, the lack of planning and understand of managing a crowd - and the people that are responsible for those decisions will still be responsible for those decisions when FIFA rolls up in 2026 - there's an awful lot for the US to learn from last night, and from the trouble in the semi-final - the question will be whether or not those responsible are open to that learning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 10 hours ago, villa4europe said: something tells me there will be a very big reason as to why they dont... Reveal hidden contents but the middle east comment is interesting, there was no trouble in Qatar, you'd expect there to be no trouble in SA, these kind of things wont happen there as its a different crowd Interested what you mean by that? The local crowd in those countries wouldn't cause riots? If so, that may have been a factor, but you will still get thousands of tourist fans that bring with them the culture of their country. I suspect a big reason for reduced trouble in those countries was the prohibitively expensive and difficult task of acquiring alcohol in Qatar, and for both countries the consequence of the threat of a lengthy prison sentence in a place that treats criminals accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted July 15 Author Share Posted July 15 20 minutes ago, MrBlack said: Interested what you mean by that? The local crowd in those countries wouldn't cause riots? If so, that may have been a factor, but you will still get thousands of tourist fans that bring with them the culture of their country. I suspect a big reason for reduced trouble in those countries was the prohibitively expensive and difficult task of acquiring alcohol in Qatar, and for both countries the consequence of the threat of a lengthy prison sentence in a place that treats criminals accordingly. Yep both of those things paired with it being a wealthier crowd The people spending the kind of money to go to Qatar or SA are not plastic chair throwers, there's also going to be less people there, so the likelihood of huge numbers of ticketless fan reduces, so does the mob mentality I don't know this for sure but I'd also guess that there's more normal seats bought with corporate credit cards in the middle east Not sure how many thousand England fans travelled to Berlin last minute with no ticket, got pissed, joined the mob, got coked up, rushed the turnstile at the stadium but it's safe to say that's not happening in Riyadh is it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: Indeed, it's a nice feature of US sport that you don't need to segregate supporters - it's true in a number of sports in the UK too, but not football. And here's the thing, the US is hosting football, it's inviting football to its shores - and as such it needs to understand the values that come with that sport. I think that's very difficult for the US, as a nation you don't adopt the values of others, you impose your own, and that's very dangerous in this instance. The kind of small town cop mentality we saw last night with the security and policing at the Hard Rock stadium won't work well with the culture of football - a culture you've invited into the nation and now need to embrace - and if it happens where there's a crowd that isn't as family oriented as last nights, then there will be huge trouble. Make no mistake, if those in uniform pushing and striking out at fans from the middle of a crowd of thousands last night had been doing it agains an Eastern European nation, those security staff would have been in extraordinary danger of serious injury or loss of life. Football has its own crowd culture, it's not pretty, its not morally right, but it exists and it is what it is - and the policing that has developed around it is about control, not engagement - it's about a police presence whose main aim is to do nothing, to be just a presence - to act as a barrier between the supporters and their ability to go wherever they please and to prevent supporters engaging with whoever they please. it's lines of police vehicles, horses and uniforms that direct and manipulate the crowd safely to the seats in the stadium, then get them out and away without clashes, a job of shepherding. From what I can see of American policing, and especially that of 21st century American policing, that's the opposite of the way the US deals with things - US law enforcement engages, it opposes and it gets involved - that's not going to make for a peaceful tournament. Culturally perhaps America isn't best placed to accept the idea that other nations might do things better, the whole 'Murica thing and all that comes with it means I have a feeling that 'do less' policing and a watching brief won't fit well with the culture of Oo-rah policing and that the national ego won't take well the advice of nations that understand how to police football crowds properly. Essentially, I like the culture of US sports, fans mixing, tailgating, a friendly rivalry with a lot more words than thrown than bottle of mayonnaise, it's good in ways that the global culture of football isn't - but it's the global culture of football that is coming in 2026 and the culture of global football isn't going to adjust and isn't going to react well to force and my concern is that that's what we'll get. It was co-organised by CONCACAF, of which the US is a member, and the host venues are run by the companies that own them - the decisions made on the ground last night, which lead to fans without tickets gaining entry in their thousands while some fans with tickets were left outside and children were left in tears and struggling for breath in crushes were the decisions of those on the ground at the venue - the law enforcement and venue security staff - those are American decisions. CONMEBOL has to take a share of the responsibility, as do the fans who first attempted to enter without tickets, but the organisation on the ground was the chief fault here, the lack of planning and understand of managing a crowd - and the people that are responsible for those decisions will still be responsible for those decisions when FIFA rolls up in 2026 - there's an awful lot for the US to learn from last night, and from the trouble in the semi-final - the question will be whether or not those responsible are open to that learning. Wow, at least now I know where you’re coming from. So it’s all on any host country, of any event, to completely conform to their guests, while said guests are under no obligation to do the same, even at some minimal level? That seems to be what you are saying. Or does that apply only when said host is the evil empire? Edited July 15 by Nor-Cal Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 17 minutes ago, Nor-Cal Villan said: Wow, at least now I know where you’re coming from. So it’s all on any host country, of any event, to completely conform to their guests, while said guests are under no obligation to do the same, even at some minimal level? That seems to be what you are saying. Or does that apply only when said host is the evil empire? Yes, it's on the organisers to get the organisation right. You can wish people were different, you can tell them they have to be, but in the end they will be how they are. The systems need to deal with people as they are, and that should mean no ticket resale, segregated fans and better admission processes on the gate at a minimum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TS Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Nor-Cal Villan said: Wow, at least now I know where you’re coming from. So it’s all on any host country, of any event, to completely conform to their guests, while said guests are under no obligation to do the same, even at some minimal level? That seems to be what you are saying. Or does that apply only when said host is the evil empire? If you read all that post and the one thing you took away was that the "Evil Empire" is being has had unfair expectations put on it in a way that other countries aren't, then maybe you're a little more jingoistic than you like to proclaim. If anything that post was praising US fan culture as a whole and saying football fans are too uncivilised to be treated with the same way you would a North American crowd. Edited July 15 by TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 10 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Yes, it's on the organisers to get the organisation right. You can wish people were different, you can tell them they have to be, but in the end they will be how they are. The systems need to deal with people as they are, and that should mean no ticket resale, segregated fans and better admission processes on the gate at a minimum. Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 2 minutes ago, TS said: If you read all that post and the one thing you took away was that the "Evil Empire" is being has had unfair expectations put on it in a way that other countries aren't, then maybe you're a little more jingoistic than you like to proclaim. I wouldn’t/didn’t say expectations are unfair. And your point is taken: that wasn’t my only takeaway, there was just more there than I have time/desire to respond to. So fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted July 15 Moderator Share Posted July 15 44 minutes ago, Nor-Cal Villan said: So it’s all on any host country, of any event, to completely conform to their guests, while said guests are under no obligation to do the same, even at some minimal level? That seems to be what you are saying. Or does that apply only when said host is the evil empire? Well of course there are limits, the point of good organisation and awareness is that it reduces the chances of reaching those limits. Better policing and organisation would have kept fans without tickets a distance form the stadium last night, better organisation around the perimeter would have helped alleviate the problems with the crushes and the disorganisation - if you look at European (and South American) football grounds, the police presence is all outside the grounds - the half a mile to a mile around a stadium on a big day is heavily policed, just in terms of managing where people go and where they congregate, in being on the edge of their eyesight and in being a friendly guide to those that need it - that seemed to be missing last night and what we then end up with is an overwhelmed stadium staff. That doesn't mean people can behave like animals or that violence and lawlessness should be tolerated, but it does mean working hard to prevent things getting to that point. There's a cultural gap where football policing tends to be proactive - working with fans groups, shepherding and watching - whereas US policing is much more reactive - trust people to behave but stamp down hard on it when they don't - with the type of visitors you'll have in 2026 - the first way works a lot better and the choice will be yours. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 Quote Colombian Football Federation head arrested amid Copa America chaos Ramón Jesurún, son are accused of attacking security guards at Hard Rock Stadium Ramón Jesurún, the head of soccer’s governing body in Colombia, was arrested amid a night of chaos at the Copa America soccer tournament in Miami Gardens. Jesurún, the president of the Colombian Football Federation and a vice president with CONMEBOL, the group that puts on Copa America, is facing three felony counts of battery on a specified official or employee. The 71-year-old also serves on the FIFA Council, a “strategic and oversight body” for soccer’s global governing body. Both father and son “became irate” at a guard and began “shouting” at him, police said. The arrest report states the altercation became physical after a security guard asked the men, “yelling in (the guard’s) face,” to step back and placed a palm on the younger Jesurún’s chest to “guide him back.” That led the elder Jesurún to step forward and push the guard, police said. His son then followed up by grabbing the guard’s neck and punching him, according to police. Both men are accused of then fighting security guards who tried to break up the altercation. https://www.local10.com/news/local/2024/07/15/colombia-football-federation-head-arrested-amid-copa-america-chaos/ Article has a link to a video of the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) Were there any problems in 1994? Were huge attendances for that World cup and the stadiums probably weren't as modern as then when you look at the venue that hosted the final which was an open bowl in Pasadena. Edited July 15 by VillaChris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 15 Share Posted July 15 (edited) 2 hours ago, VillaChris said: Were there any problems in 1994? Were huge attendances for that World cup and the stadiums probably weren't as modern as then when you look at the venue that hosted the final which was an open bowl in Pasadena. Don’t recall issues but that could be more due to me trying to remember things 30 years ago than anything IIRC average attendance was nearly 70k per match. Most of the venues from that WC are no longer in use/torn down, while a few have been significantly revamped/renovated. The closest matches to me were at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas, which was opened in 1930. Mainly recall how brutally hot it was. The played Brazil there on July 4 and pretty sure it was nearly 41 C that day. I saw the Stones there later that year Edited July 15 by Nor-Cal Villan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il_serpente Posted July 16 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16 6 hours ago, Nor-Cal Villan said: Don’t recall issues but that could be more due to me trying to remember things 30 years ago than anything IIRC average attendance was nearly 70k per match. Most of the venues from that WC are no longer in use/torn down, while a few have been significantly revamped/renovated. The closest matches to me were at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas, which was opened in 1930. Mainly recall how brutally hot it was. The played Brazil there on July 4 and pretty sure it was nearly 41 C that day. I saw the Stones there later that year I saw several games at Stanford Stadium that year, including the July 4 match between US and Brazil and a quarterfinal. There were no issues whatsoever. I rode my bike to the stadium and put it in the supervised bike corral with no concerns. One big difference between that and the Copa Final is that the crowds in ‘94 (in the SF Bay Area, at least) were mostly locals and other US residents, not visitors or ex-pats from the countries playing the match, which I’m sure made it a bit easier to control. But there was a huge population of Brazilians who basically took over a local city as their base and had a significant presence at all their group matches and the July 4 match. Perhaps Brazilians are just inherently better behaved than Colombians and Argentinians? Seems unlikely. It’s interesting that those of you across the pond criticizing the US’s ability to handle football matches are conveniently forgetting about the problems at the Champions League two years ago. French venue and security and English fans rushing the stadium. Or are those 2 countries and FA’s unfamiliar with football fan culture. Pot, meet kettle? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nor-Cal Villan Posted July 16 Share Posted July 16 8 minutes ago, il_serpente said: I saw several games at Stanford Stadium that year, including the July 4 match between US and Brazil and a quarterfinal. There were no issues whatsoever. I rode my bike to the stadium and put it in the supervised bike corral with no concerns. One big difference between that and the Copa Final is that the crowds in ‘94 (in the SF Bay Area, at least) were mostly locals and other US residents, not visitors or ex-pats from the countries playing the match, which I’m sure made it a bit easier to control. But there was a huge population of Brazilians who basically took over a local city as their base and had a significant presence at all their group matches and the July 4 match. Perhaps Brazilians are just inherently better behaved than Colombians and Argentinians? Seems unlikely. It’s interesting that those of you across the pond criticizing the US’s ability to handle football matches are conveniently forgetting about the problems at the Champions League two years ago. French venue and security and English fans rushing the stadium. Or are those 2 countries and FA’s unfamiliar with football fan culture. Pot, meet kettle? I was right about my memory of 30 years ago: I posted that the July 4th USA/Brazil match was in Dallas I do vividly recall watching it in Austin, as my parents were visiting from NC. I’m definitely not misremembering that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts