tonyh29 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 35 minutes ago, Awol said: Yep, just like in 2002 when they threatened to leave the UK if we didn't join the Euro - which funnily enough was the same line taken by the big banks at the time... Your point about none of this happening in a vacuum vis a vis the EU is a good one too. If big multinationals are taking a dim view of the Eurozone's long term prospects then investing further in the UK regardless of the future relationship with the customs union makes complete sense. and funnily enough was greeted with cries of let them go by the same people now saying and we are going to lose the banks due to Brexit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, blandy said: But the flip side is that it's been a massive success too in many many areas. I'm sure were you to list those successesss , we could find a counter argument Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 13 minutes ago, blandy said: You could, but I think that would be wrong, really. Because of the UK leaving and the whole referendum thing we've kind of been concentrating on the bad aspects of it (and there are many). From the "unelected" numpties at the head of it an their "arrogance", to things like CAP, TTIP, Migrant/refugee crisis, the way they treated Greece and whatever else people want to add in to the mix to match their personal views. But the flip side is that it's been a massive success too in many many areas. It's just that people in the UK mostly don't talk about the successes, so maybe we see it much more negatively that is actually the case. When I said 'failed' I mean more in the sense it's failed the stress test. I would never dispute that it has had many successes not least one of the most peaceful periods in the history of the continent which was obviously its original objective. When I say it's failed I mean the overal project has failed not that it hasn't had its successes. My personal view point is that the EU has got lost along the way, its tried to become something that people simply didn't want, particularly in a period of economic hardship. The EU should be about working in collaboration, it shouldn't be about Federalisation which I think is what it's become and what people of many differ ent nationalities, for lots of different reasons aren't prepared to accept. Now sure some of that is fuelled by those with their own agendas, far right campaigners or media barons (if there is a difference between the two)... The EU has been a massive success but it's gone too far, crucially at the wrong time and become a beast that those it seeks to serve wish to slay. Or a large and increasing number do. Sure many people blame the EU for ills that are the fault of others but even in that the EU has failed, failed to come to their aid, failed to deal with Russia, failed to sort out the migrant crisis failed to sort of the mess of Greece instead kicking the can down the road for another day. Whatevwr its successes of the past, in the here and now it's failing and I think it's heading towards either disintegration or a significant reduction in remit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 Just now, tonyh29 said: I'm sure were you to list those successesss , we could find a counter argument Ok, go ahead. Mobile roaming charges are because of the EU action far far cheaper. Our air, our seas, our beaches and rivers and drinking water are less polluted. We can go to France and bring back more cheap booze and tabs than we can carry. Our rights at work are much better than they were, we are legally entitled to hoilday pay because of the EU Prices of goods are lower - all tarriffs have been removed. Cheaper and easier holidays on the continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, TrentVilla said: My personal view point is that the EU has got lost along the way, its tried to become something that people simply didn't want, particularly in a period of economic hardship. exactly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: When I say it's failed I mean the overal project has failed not that it hasn't had its successes...its tried to become something that people simply didn't want Fine, I completely disagree with that part. I think overall it's been a huge success, but has many of the flaws you've outlined. I also thin that it's true that some people didn't want. I think many people did want. Just not so many in the UK. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 My job's as good as gone. They haven't said as much, but going on actions rather than words. Admin to Poland, production to a US company. 1600 of us - Service industry. 17 minutes ago, blandy said: With regard to actual "experts" - scientists, economists etc. they mostly stuck to talking about their fields of knowledge and expertise, and mostly talked about longer term, once we've left, type consequences. Oh yes. Most companies aren't just dropping and running, they're preparing exit strategies and waiting to see what the real ramifications of Brexit are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, Xann said: My job's as good as gone. Sorry to hear that. My company (or the bit of it I work in) is sort of sitting in a holding pattern because a number of contracts that were supposed to be coming along have just fallen into a hole because of Government inaction and paralysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 9 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: When I say it's failed I mean the overal project has failed The EU has been a massive success Boris, stop using Trent's log-in you mop haired tory tart 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, blandy said: Fine, I completely disagree with that part. I think overall it's been a huge success, but has many of the flaws you've outlined. I also thin that it's true that some people didn't want. I think many people did want. Just not so many in the UK. Yes that is fair and you are right many do, in fairness many did in the U.K. Just not enough. The trouble is I'm not sure the EU had any sort of mandate. Most people in Europe haven't had a say in decisions or even in their countries membership or increasing integration. When we were given the choice we said thanks but no thanks. As I posted earlier I think others will follow in time, that process will start with domestic elections early next year. Only when people are given an actual choice can anyone really know what it is they want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 4 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Only when people are given an actual choice can anyone really know what it is they want. Without going over old ground, there are lots of people in the UK (leavers and remainers) who were given an actual choice and then voted not on the choice, but on some other reasons. Many people said they voted leave not because they wanted to actually leave, but because they thought reamin would win and they wanted to vote against the tories. Or they voted remain because they didn't want the UK to break up, or etc. or basically that the binary choice offered didn't allow for what we're now seeing talked about - hard or soft brexit, for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 19 minutes ago, Xann said: My job's as good as gone. They haven't said as much, but going on actions rather than words. Admin to Poland, production to a US company. 1600 of us - Service industry. Oh yes. Most companies aren't just dropping and running, they're preparing exit strategies and waiting to see what the real ramifications of Brexit are. Sorry to hear that fella. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 30 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I'm sure were you to list those successesss , we could find a counter argument Lots of countries are much wealthier than they otherwise would be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 28, 2016 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 7 minutes ago, blandy said: Without going over old ground, there are lots of people in the UK (leavers and remainers) who were given an actual choice and then voted not on the choice, but on some other reasons. Many people said they voted leave not because they wanted to actually leave, but because they thought reamin would win and they wanted to vote against the tories. Or they voted remain because they didn't want the UK to break up, or etc. or basically that the binary choice offered didn't allow for what we're now seeing talked about - hard or soft brexit, for example Whatever the reasons, and this is undoubtably true, it's how they voted whatever the motivations, misinformation or utter idiocy of their motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 28, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Whatever the reasons, and this is undoubtably true, it's how they voted whatever the motivations, misinformation or utter idiocy of their motives. Agreed, but we didn't find out "what they actually want". The question was too simple. Some people wanted to stop immigration, some people wanted to "regain sovereignty" some people wanted to keep the money we spend on the EU and spend it on the NHS instead, some people wanted to stay in the single market... I guess parliament has got to work out a way to proceed with leaving and follow the traditional UK democratic process to get there. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, blandy said: Our air, our seas, our beaches and rivers and drinking water are less polluted. been done before , there isn't any evidence to say that our beaches etc wouldn't have been cleaned up anyway ,, I.e the Clean Air Ac that was passed in the UK in 1956 ( long before we joined the EC ) so to say we wouldn't' have clean beaches without the EU is stretching things somewhat 4 minutes ago, blandy said: We can go to France and bring back more cheap booze and tabs than we can carry. whilst straining our beloved NHS with more and more drinking and smoking related issues 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Cheaper and easier holidays on the continent. the EU may have helped opened up freedom of the skies but they aren't necessarily the reason we get cheap holidays , see Norwegian Airlines 9 minutes ago, blandy said: Prices of goods are lower - all tarriffs have been removed. Simply based on the VAT code of Europe, electronics legally imported are approximately 20-30% more expensive than America. What about the flip side of the EU protectionism , i.e food from Africa that Tariffs mean they can't sell to the EU , not only is food more expensive , we then have to send money to Africa to bail them out ... removal of those tariffs would likely be a win win .. Africa gets to become self sufficient and we don't have to listen to Bono lecturing us ( ignoring the corruption in Africa meaning some despot will build a new palace instead of feeding his people !!) 14 minutes ago, blandy said: Mobile roaming charges are because of the EU action far far cheaper. Yeah it was great during my trip to South Africa to have my mobile data capped at £1.20 for the day 18 minutes ago, blandy said: Our rights at work are much better than they were, we are legally entitled to hoilday pay because of the EU The right to Holiday time was introduced in 1938 .... and EU law only provides for 20 days paid leave , the UK government actually gives 28 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, tonyh29 said: been done before , there isn't any evidence to say that our beaches etc wouldn't have been cleaned up anyway ,, I.e the Clean Air Ac that was passed in the UK in 1956 ( long before we joined the EC ) so to say we wouldn't' have clean beaches without the EU is stretching things somewhat You asked for things the EU had actually done, not things that may or may not have been done otherwise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 'Britain has given Nissan (7201.T) a written commitment of extra support in the event that Brexit reduces the competitiveness of its Sunderland plant, in return for new production investments by the Japanese carmaker, a source with knowledge of the matter told Reuters. In addition to unconditional investment aid, Britain pledged in a letter to offer further relief if the terms of Britain's European Union exit ended up harming the plant's performance, the source said.' http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-nissan-support-idUKKCN12R1AK More to the Nissan story than meets the eye at first glance, it would seem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: You asked for things the EU had actually done, not things that may or may not have been done otherwise. I didn't , I said I'm sure we could counter those successes , and thus I did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I didn't , I said I'm sure we could counter those successes , and thus I did Well, logically you haven't countered it at all. 'That's unquestionably a good thing, but there's a slim chance we might have done it anyway' is not much of a knock. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts