The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[villakram]

Democracy as defined by the out crowd is so interesting. We won, so feck off*, we're not doing this again. Stop looking back, let's move forward.

Errrr... if you are really into this democracy lark then both sides are allowed to fight for their point of view up to and including scrubbing Brexit from the books, which is funny in that the referendum is not legally binding, so they are books in the figurative sense. It's up to the Brexit folks to go through with this, and thus far it doesn't look like they know how to do that. How so very surprising.

* as in (i) leave me alone and stop annoying me with your silly liberal/elite/traitor opinions, (ii) get out of my country.

[tonyh29]

46 minutes ago, BOF said:

Yep, and wasn't there some election a few years back in Southern Europe where a right-winger got in, and the EU said 'we don't like that, he can't win' so the result didn't stand.  It's all hilarious.  We're all still fascinated as to what will actually happen in the UK.

Austria  ..no idea what all the fuss was about , not as if Austria has a track record with producing lunatics  ....

 

I'm guessing Merkel will be demanding a re-run when she gets sent packing next year

 

I like the presumption that Europe thinks they have the strong hand , I'm wondering which country blinks first 

[tonyh29]

6 minutes ago, villakram said:

Democracy as defined by the out crowd is so interesting. We won, so feck off*, we're not doing this again. Stop looking back, let's move forward.

Errrr... if you are really into this democracy lark then both sides are allowed to fight for their point of view up to and including scrubbing Brexit from the books, which is funny in that the referendum is not legally binding, so they are books in the figurative sense. It's up to the Brexit folks to go through with this, and thus far it doesn't look like they know how to do that. How so very surprising.

* as in (i) leave me alone and stop annoying me with your silly liberal/elite/traitor opinions, (ii) get out of my country.

I was so looking forward to the second Scottish referendum after Salmond and wee Jimmy Krankie won the first , or is that different definition of democracy and we only get a second one when the people that shout the loudest don't win ?

[villakram]

7 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I was so looking forward to the second Scottish referendum after Salmond and wee Jimmy Krankie won the first , or is that different definition of democracy and we only get a second one when the people that shout the loudest don't win ?

No, the possibility of 2nd/3rd/4th... always exists if that is what a significant constituency of a democracy desire. Which side of the argument they are on and when should not matter a jot. 

If those horrible elites somehow stop Brexit, well then get back at it and work to get a future legally binding decision either explicitly in the referendum itself or through an act of parliament. You could always try and violently overthrow the tyrants, but that sounds like too much work altogether... have a beer and get on with life.

Edited September 23, 2016 by villakram

[darrenm]

There's a bit of a difference when it's based on lies. The out campaign have been shown with evidence to have been lying, causing the country to vote to leave the EU.

Shouldn't anyone who falsified or misrepresented the facts be in jail now?

[tonyh29]

3 minutes ago, darrenm said:

There's a bit of a difference when it's based on lies. The out campaign have been shown with evidence to have been lying, causing the country to vote to leave the EU.

Shouldn't anyone who falsified or misrepresented the facts be in jail now?

sure  .... we can start with Tony Blair who promised  a EU referendum in his 2005 Manifesto ... once he comes out of jail for war crimes , we can then bang him up under DMs Law

 

but tbh there wouldn't be many left on the streets under DM law   (maybe that's a good thing)

Edited September 23, 2016 by tonyh29

[darrenm]

Just now, tonyh29 said:

sure  .... we can start with Tony Blair who promised  a EU referendum in his 2005 Mannifesto ... once he comes out of jail for war crimes , we can then bang him up under DMs Law

 

but tbh there wouldn't be many left on the streets under DM law   (maybe that's a good thing)

So knowingly lying to change the course of the entire European Union is OK?

Not trying to strawman this, but it's a pretty big deal. Some weasly idiots duped us then ran.

If Nick Leeson can go to jail for bankrupting Barings, then BoZo, LeFarage and 'above average' Gove must be liable for something?

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, darrenm said:

So knowingly lying to change the course of the entire European Union is OK?

Not trying to strawman this, but it's a pretty big deal. Some weasly idiots duped us then ran.

If Nick Leeson can go to jail for bankrupting Barings, then BoZo, LeFarage and 'above average' Gove must be liable for something?

I remember all those truths the remain camp told so well  , World War III was a particular favourite 

 

... the whole premise of the EU has been built on a lie , quite ironic if lies then bring it crashing down I guess  

[blandy]

40 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I like the presumption that Europe thinks they have the strong hand , I'm wondering which country blinks first 

So are you with the hard right brexiters in terms of thinking they don't, and that the UK has the strongest hand, Tony?

It looks like mutually assured destruction will be the ultimate outcome. I think idiots like Junker are making the decision to leave look less bad, and idiots like Fox and all that lot are making it look worse. There are just too many knob heads involved all round.

"Brexit means brexit" is just code for "I haven't got a fecking clue what to do, or how we're going to sort this mess out"

In or out is just a choice between which bowl of poo to eat.

[HanoiVillan]

47 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I like the presumption that Europe thinks they have the strong hand 

They do. 

[tonyh29]

17 minutes ago, blandy said:

So are you with the hard right brexiters in terms of thinking they don't, and that the UK has the strongest hand, Tony?

It looks like mutually assured destruction will be the ultimate outcome. I think idiots like Junker are making the decision to leave look less bad, and idiots like Fox and all that lot are making it look worse. There are just too many knob heads involved all round.

"Brexit means brexit" is just code for "I haven't got a fecking clue what to do, or how we're going to sort this mess out"

In or out is just a choice between which bowl of poo to eat.

No I think I used the Poker analogy before , I think we have a hand to bet on  but we don't know if it's 4 aces and they have a royal flush  ..

If common sense prevails it can be mutually assured whatever the opposite word of destruction is   .... I can see why Juncker and co want to posture the way they are , but with the current mood in Germany , France and Holland I think the EU is going to struggle to survive  .... Give Free trade and restriction of movement and you probably save the EU and Merkels job at the same time

Edited September 23, 2016 by tonyh29

[tonyh29]

8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

They do. 

well I can't compete with that argument  , have an Internet

 

[villakram]

41 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I remember all those truths the remain camp told so well  , World War III was a particular favourite 

 

... the whole premise of the EU has been built on a lie , quite ironic if lies then bring it crashing down I guess  

Care to elaborate on what that lie is?

I think they've been quite open about the desire for something akin to united states of Europe for a long time. However, there is also a huge camp in Europe that is vehemently against that same idea and are quite happy with things more or less how they are modulo a wrinkle here and there.

It's funny as hell living over here where mocking the EU is a national past-time, yet so many of their political problems are a direct state vs federal contest, with the Feds generally on top. Whereas, it's the opposite in the EU as currently constructed.

Edited September 23, 2016 by villakram

[ml1dch]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

I remember all those truths the remain camp told so well  , World War III was a particular favourite 

Unless you have quotes to the contrary, the only time World War III was mentioned was by Boris Johnson, in response to a point that nobody had made.

So if your particular favourite is something you've made up then you're probably on pretty shaky ground. 

[tonyh29]

4 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

Unless you have quotes to the contrary, the only time World War III was mentioned was by Boris Johnson, in response to a point that nobody had made.

So if your particular favourite is something you've made up then you're probably on pretty shaky ground. 

I was being glib  

( see Cameron TV interview )

[Awol]

The line that 'no one knows what Brexit means' is pretty daft, imo.

It means leaving the EU, even the supposedly stupid leave voters understood that very clearly. It was a binary decision, in or out. 

Expecting May or any other government Minister to indicate what our red lines or general strategy would be ahead of negotiations to leave is head spinningly dumb.

The politicians stamping their feet and demanding such details 'right now, or they'll be very cross indeed' are playing to the brainless section of the public who actually do think they should be told. 

[Davkaus]

14 minutes ago, Awol said:

The line that 'no one knows what Brexit means' is pretty daft, imo.

 

Especially when May has clarified it again and again. Brexit means Brexit, what more is there to know.  

[snowychap]

6 hours ago, Awol said:

The line that 'no one knows what Brexit means' is pretty daft, imo.

It means leaving the EU, even the supposedly stupid leave voters understood that very clearly. It was a binary decision, in or out.

That in itself is a pretty daft comment, imo.

As a poster quite obviously acquainted with the concept of nuance, this post would appear to betray a prejudice.

Edited September 24, 2016 by snowychap

[OutByEaster?]

On 9/23/2016 at 16:54, tonyh29 said:

I like the presumption that Europe thinks they have the strong hand , I'm wondering which country blinks first 

I like the presumption that free trade deals are about governments exerting their will.

The 'free' in free trade deals means free from government meddling, free from regulation, free from tax, free from competition, free from anything that might have the tiniest effect on the balance sheets of private interest - the nations of Europe are currently in competition with the UK to quickly negotiate on who can open their arsehole widest for world corporations.

 

 

[Nicho]

On 24 September 2016 at 16:49, Awol said:

The line that 'no one knows what Brexit means' is pretty daft, imo.

It means leaving the EU, even the supposedly stupid leave voters understood that very clearly. It was a binary decision, in or out. 

Expecting May or any other government Minister to indicate what our red lines or general strategy would be ahead of negotiations to leave is head spinningly dumb.

The politicians stamping their feet and demanding such details 'right now, or they'll be very cross indeed' are playing to the brainless section of the public who actually do think they should be told. 

I think you've over simplified it, it's the laws we have been abiding too set down by EU legislation that is up in air. What we have to follow will be up to our own Governments choosing. A conservative Government making those decisions frightens me.

While id rather just get over with and see what the future holds I thinks it's right to delay as long as possible to spend as much time trying to untangle our selves from EU laws so that when it's given the go ahead we are prepared with an idea of where we want to go.