Genie Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: We certainly won’t be paying a tenner for £30 of benefits any time soon. The reports are that the UK has lost out on approximately £140b so far since Brexit. Was it 2020 when we were fully out, £30b ish per year worse off than when we were in. Obviously we won’t be fully back in for a long time, if ever, but there’s certainly tens of billions of “opportunity” on the table to be had which unsurprisingly is a priority for the new government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 4 minutes ago, Genie said: The reports are that the UK has lost out on approximately £140b so far since Brexit. Was it 2020 when we were fully out, £30b ish per year worse off than when we were in. Obviously we won’t be fully back in for a long time, if ever, but there’s certainly tens of billions of “opportunity” on the table to be had which unsurprisingly is a priority for the new government. I’m all for it if it’s true. I’m just a bit sceptical about ‘on the table’, that feels even more presumptuous than ‘oven ready’. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Genie said: I thought it was a given that this isn’t a done deal. It’s day one of “resetting the relationship with Europe” which is acknowledged from all sides. What makes you think that it's any more of a reset than say, Sunak's trip to Berlin to meet Scholz from April: Quote The two countries will open a "new chapter" in their partnership, Mr Sunak said. The only thing that has changed is the vibes of "nice Europhile Starmer instead of a horrid Tory" being the person doing the talking, and that will be enough to make things different. It isn't. Edited August 28 by ml1dch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 The discussions with Germany and France will deal with bilateral issues that are not related to trade (as trade agreements must be decided with the EU at the table). So this means things like defence, intelligence and asylum seeker policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 1 minute ago, ml1dch said: What makes you think that it's any more of a reset than say, Sunak's trip to Berlin to meet Scholz from April: Because Sunak and the Tories were pro-Brexit and so they had very little room to manoeuvre. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 1 minute ago, Genie said: Because Sunak and the Tories were pro-Brexit and so they had very little room to manoeuvre. Well to return to my earlier question, in what direction do you expect Labour to manoeuvre that Sunak and his predecessors couldn't or wouldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 (edited) 5 minutes ago, LondonLax said: The discussions with Germany and France will deal with bilateral issues that are not related to trade (as trade agreements must be decided with the EU at the table). So this means things like defence, intelligence and asylum seeker policy. Zee Germans this morning and yesterday both suggested trying to weave general EU relations talks in to defence meetings and Ukraine business would be considered poor form. It could obviously just be the public / pr side of new negotiations. Or it could be we are getting a bit excited about how the EU view Labour’s repeated pro Brexit stance. There is still a lot of wishing being projected on to what Labour have actually said. Edited August 28 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 1 minute ago, ml1dch said: Well to return to my earlier question, in what direction do you expect Labour to manoeuvre that Sunak and his predecessors couldn't or wouldn't? Mainly because Starmer does not have a cabinet of throbbers and many others in the party who are deadly against supporting anything which resembles a closer relationship with the EU. The Tories and their right wing policies have been rejected by the British people in record breaking fashion. The landscape has changed dramatically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted August 28 VT Supporter Share Posted August 28 25 minutes ago, Genie said: The reports are that the UK has lost out on approximately £140b so far since Brexit. Was it 2020 when we were fully out, £30b ish per year worse off than when we were in. Obviously we won’t be fully back in for a long time, if ever, but there’s certainly tens of billions of “opportunity” on the table to be had which unsurprisingly is a priority for the new government. Hmmmm. How much was that black hole again? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 7 minutes ago, Genie said: Mainly because Starmer does not have a cabinet of throbbers and many others in the party who are deadly against supporting anything which resembles a closer relationship with the EU. This might mean that they all smile a bit more at the press conferences afterwards, but it doesn't actually change anything. And I wasn't asking for the logic (you've been pretty clear on that), I was asking for what. 13 minutes ago, ml1dch said: In what direction do you expect Labour to manoeuvre that Sunak and his predecessors couldn't or wouldn't? What will Labour ask for that the Tories didn't or couldn't? What will they be prepared to offer as negotiating collateral that the Tories didn't or couldn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 8 minutes ago, ml1dch said: What will Labour ask for that the Tories didn't or couldn't? What will they be prepared to offer as negotiating collateral that the Tories didn't or couldn't? I don’t know the detail (as I said before). Labour could offer many things on the sliding scale between what he have now up to full membership. We won’t be full members any time soon but I wouldn’t be surprised to eventually see a “UK deal” in similar ways that Norway, Iceland etc have without what is now a dirty label here as EU membership. Some kind of arrangement that allows free trade and movement but offers an exit route down the line if it’s not working for us. Not being outside of all of the blocks would be a positive start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Pushing a return will get the tax swervers' media even more excited. The silly old words removed that bought the Brexit con will be dying off over the the next few years. In that time Brexit will have a chance to prove itself with a non Tory government. Who knows, the EU might fumble the ball in that time, or we might deal with the big changes with tech and the environment better? If things continue to go badly as they have? The youngsters should push against the Brexit blag and we move back towards EU anyway, just with reduced status and quite a bit poorer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 34 minutes ago, Genie said: I don’t know the detail (as I said before). Labour could offer many things on the sliding scale between what he have now up to full membership. Without wanting to sound too much of a dick about it, I do know some of the detail. The EU currently have most of what they want already, due to the absurdly imbalanced deal that was agreed by idiots in 2019. So there isn't much that we can offer that they don't have already. The things that they definitely do want are (a) greater security integration and (b) Erasmus / youth mobility. The first is politically easy. But the more we agree sensible, bilateral defence agreements with Germany, France, Sweden etc - the less leverage the UK has at EU level. It would be A Bad Thing to make our contribution to European security contingent on them being helpful on trade, but it does mean that one of the few cards that we do hold isn't as strong as it otherwise could be. The second is politically difficult. Higher fees for foreign students currently offset the fees paid by British students to a huge extent. So the EU ask is basically "please subsidise European student access to your excellent (for now) higher education system". For a sector currently experiencing an existential funding crisis, it's going to be very difficult to agree to. And that's something that can be dressed up in the press as the relatively benign, uncontroversial "mutual youth mobility arrangements". But lift the rock and lots of unpleasant political stuff wriggles out. But unless we bring stuff like this to the table, there is little need for them to open any doors that are currently closed. None of this is insurmountable. But they are definitely problems that don't get fixed just because Starmer has David Lammy in his cabinet rather than Suella Braverman. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 Last week I spoke with an EU citizen who works for a UK university. To be clear, this guy has a PhD and has been hired by a very well respected university to teach and do research. He works hard and pays his taxes. You got him without having to pay a penny on his education, that was all earned abroad. But, he can’t wait to leave. “They always remind you that you’re not British”, he told me. He will never be British, he will leave, and students at the University of X will be taught by someone his department considers inferior. It’s such a waste. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted September 5 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5 I was speaking to a Bar owner in Menorca yesterday. He was saying they'd lost a lot of summer workers as a lot of young Brits would go over and work the summer season there. They're having to rely a lot more on local labour and are really struggling. I asked if other EU nations like France could provide labour. He said no, the French are lazy and don't like to work He also said there is a shortage of Doctors and Nurses as many of them move to The UK to work in the NHS as the pay is a lot better than in Spain which suprised me. He thought Brexit was a disaster anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted September 5 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5 1 hour ago, sidcow said: I was speaking to a Bar owner in Menorca yesterday. He was saying they'd lost a lot of summer workers as a lot of young Brits would go over and work the summer season there. They're having to rely a lot more on local labour and are really struggling. I asked if other EU nations like France could provide labour. He said no, the French are lazy and don't like to work He also said there is a shortage of Doctors and Nurses as many of them move to The UK to work in the NHS as the pay is a lot better than in Spain which suprised me. He thought Brexit was a disaster anyway. Can you still get a full English, Sunday roast and Carling over there since Brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted September 5 Share Posted September 5 19 minutes ago, Follyfoot said: Can you still get a full English, Sunday roast and Carling over there since Brexit An watch 'Fools an Horses'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted September 5 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5 1 hour ago, Follyfoot said: Can you still get a full English, Sunday roast and Carling over there since Brexit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 11 hours ago, Enda said: Last week I spoke with an EU citizen who works for a UK university. To be clear, this guy has a PhD and has been hired by a very well respected university to teach and do research. He works hard and pays his taxes. You got him without having to pay a penny on his education, that was all earned abroad. But, he can’t wait to leave. “They always remind you that you’re not British”, he told me. He will never be British, he will leave, and students at the University of X will be taught by someone his department considers inferior. It’s such a waste. If he does leave and the job goes to a local instead I presume the Brexiteer types would consider that a good result. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted September 6 Share Posted September 6 4 hours ago, LondonLax said: If he does leave and the job goes to a local instead I presume the Brexiteer types would consider that a good result. Yes, Brexiteers will indeed see it as a victory. They do not see how it will damage the long-term interests of the country (British students get worse teachers, the research that gets done is of lower quality, theres’s less innovation, crappier universities, slower growth in the economy, waning interest from foreign students, which means even less money coming in from fees unless you lower academic standards, even less innovation…) It’s like if you made the Premier League only hire British players, but every other league didn’t change their rules. The Premier League would drop in quality overnight. You might argue it would help the England team in the WC, but there’s no WC for universities… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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