snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) 26 minutes ago, colhint said: Sorry I have to disagree. If someone from Pakistan wants to come here, now we should be able to say we either want and need you, welcome. Or we we don't need you yet, sorry. What has that to do with EU migration or a referendum on EU membership? Edited June 26, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 Quote Brexit Is Only the Latest Proof of the Insularity and Failure of Western Establishment Institutions https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25/brexit-is-only-the-latest-proof-of-the-insularity-and-failure-of-western-establishment-institutions/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 31 minutes ago, colhint said: Sorry I have to disagree. If someone from Pakistan wants to come here, now we should be able to say we either want and need you, welcome. Or we we don't need you yet, sorry. Quite right. I assume that you can offer an example of a Pakistani person who wanted to work in the UK and was filling a role with a shortage of skills but was told "no, sorry we don't need you yet because we have to employ Polish and Romanian people instead". Just one example will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 (edited) More promises from Boris: Quote ... I cannot stress too much that Britain is part of Europe, and always will be. There will still be intense and intensifying European cooperation and partnership in a huge number of fields: the arts, the sciences, the universities, and on improving the environment. EU citizens living in this country will have their rights fully protected, and the same goes for British citizens living in the EU. British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down. As the German equivalent of the CBI – the BDI – has very sensibly reminded us, there will continue to be free trade, and access to the single market. Britain is and always will be a great European power, offering top-table opinions and giving leadership on everything from foreign policy to defence to counter-terrorism and intelligence-sharing – all the things we need to do together to make our world safer. The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal. This will bring not threats, but golden opportunities for this country – to pass laws and set taxes according to the needs of the UK. Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry. Yes, there will be a substantial sum of money which we will no longer send to Brussels, but which could be used on priorities such as the NHS. Yes, we will be able to do free trade deals with the growth economies of the world in a way that is currently forbidden. ...more on link Just a reminder then: should Boris Johson become the next leader of the Tory party and PM and chief negotiator with the EU, he has told us all what will happen so don't forget to hold him to account if it ain't so. Edited June 26, 2016 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted June 26, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Chindie said: Non-EU migration doesn't change at all. Leaving the EU has nothing to do with migration from somewhere like Pakistan. If someone voted Leave to stop the 'dirty Moslems' coming in they're idiots as well as racists. There's a minor element to which they might have some point insofar as there's nothing stopping an EU country nationalising migrants and therefore affording then EU citizenship and then they'd have the right to circulate, but at that point those people aren't non-EU migrants... But basically, no. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference. I thought as much but it's been mentioned so much that I thought maybe they'd constructed some sort of logic behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: Might be a stupid question. You know all the people who are saying leaving the EU will mean no more muslims and refugees blah blah blah? Obviously that won't happen, but are they following some warped logic? Does leaving the EU (theoretically) allow us to control our borders more for people coming in from outside of the EU, or have they just completely added 2 and 2 and gotten 7? I'm not saying we should or would do any of that by the way! I just want to know that if someone tells me they voted leave to stop muslims coming into the country like the gentleman in Stefan's amazing Barnsley video, then I can tell them that leaving the EU doesn't make a blind bit of difference to that, without being incorrect. We have total control and sovereignty over immigration from non-EU countries and always have done, so we can already control Muslim non-EU migration. I say total control, obviously there is a system in place which dictates whether someone can get a visa and if you qualify you can apply, so numbers change each year. But if we wanted to change it, we could just make a new law. The EU rules were different. The only way Brexit would make a difference to Muslim migration is in making it harder for Muslims from EU countries to come to the UK. I don't think we can know what the effect will be on refugee numbers, which will be affected more by conflict elsewhere in the world anyway. What is true is that we have obligations given by being a member of the UNHCR to provide safe haven for refugees if they are genuinely at risk of dying or persecution in their home countries, and that won't change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 26, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 26, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanBalaban Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 41 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Not surprised that Boris is less than enthusiastic tbf. Adopting the Leave position was the only option for him to get himself into the spotlight, and to put him within reach of becoming the new Tory leader. Had Cameron been in favour of Leave you can bet Boris would be on the Remain campaign. Now he's won, he probably wants nothing to do with the ramifications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 27, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 hour ago, StanBalaban said: Not surprised that Boris is less than enthusiastic tbf. Adopting the Leave position was the only option for him to get himself into the spotlight, and to put him within reach of becoming the new Tory leader. Had Cameron been in favour of Leave you can bet Boris would be on the Remain campaign. Now he's won, he probably wants nothing to do with the ramifications. Just shows what a farce the whole thing is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 7 hours ago, snowychap said: British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down Yes, the Government will be able to take back democratic control of immigration policy, with a balanced and humane points-based system to suit the needs of business and industry. These are my favourite bits. He's either lying, or leaving out some very relevant information. I can only assume in the second section, he's talking about non-EU immigration, which is completely unrelated. The bullshit propaganda continues. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon_c Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 That Johnson statement is full and absolutes that he couldn't possibly guarantee. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 36 minutes ago, jon_c said: That Johnson statement is full and absolutes that he couldn't possibly guarantee. consistant at least with the leave campaign then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Davkaus said: These are my favourite bits. He's either lying, or leaving out some very relevant information. I can only assume in the second section, he's talking about non-EU immigration, which is completely unrelated. The bullshit propaganda continues. How is he getting away with it? Like the £350m for the NHS per week etc that won the vote, how is it going pretty much untouched to the mass population without actually being true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 In fairness to the Johnson / Gove double act, Johnson always had his little chum trailing just behind him with his harmless little wet grin explaining facts and expertise were for nazis and what they were doing was more of a 'vibe' thing, a feeling, a colour wash more than an absolute truth. I expect that's how they'll try and handle day 1 at the negotiations to leave. I fully expect Boris to turn up half cut, give a brief rousing speech about Agincourt and then attempt to negotiate through the medium of modern interpretive dance. It'll be funny, there may be a tutu, or a banana, so it won't matter too much if we don't actually get anything we've (not) been promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted June 27, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2016 So there's no plan, the leave campaign is rapidly backpedaling and it appears that Boris didn't even want to come out. What have we done? What a total shambles from top to bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 (edited) I know this is an incredibly dangerous thing to say, but I have never really had a major issue with most things David Cameron has said or done. In general I'm in support of what he has been doing and seeing anyone lose their job is never nice to see. However, he should be fired for what he's allowed to happen as leader of the remain campaign. Not because he lost and thats the normal political thing to do to 'step down'. But because he allowed he leave campaign to talk utter rubbish and let them get away with it. So many people went for it on the basis of pumping hundreds of millions into the NHS, he should have catergorically stated that if leave won the sums quoted wouldn't be spent that way. Same with immigration, he should have set out the realities that there probably wouldn't be the impact that 'leave' promised. He has completely messed it up, and should represent a dismissal, not a resignation imo. Edited June 27, 2016 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 27, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 27, 2016 I was reading something yesterday that suggested the longer Article 50 isn't invoked, the less likely it would be invoked. Fairly interesting read, can't remember the link though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 hour ago, jon_c said: That Johnson statement is full and absolutes that he couldn't possibly guarantee. Though the fact that he's coming out with them even after the referendum result would give support to the idea that it's all just part of the project to get elected leader of the party and then PM. Go on, give them the cash to spend on the NHS line again as it seemed to work on Thursday (though with the obvious room to weasel out and say 'priorities' and the NHS was merely an example). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 1 minute ago, Chindie said: I was reading something yesterday that suggested the longer Article 50 isn't invoked, the less likely it would be invoked. Fairly interesting read, can't remember the link though... Was it the Jack of Kent blog? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 As regards the issue of controlling immigration, we'll get a strong indication of how far the EU is willing to go to enforce free movement of populations, when Switzerland's quota system comes into effect in 2017. Switzerland is not in the EU but were forced to accept free movement as part of their deal but they decided to limit immigration after a referendum. The EU has placed sanctions on Switzerland and the Swiss are now waiting to see whether Brussels tears up their whole deal or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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